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Published on:

12th Jan 2022

Dealing with Confrontation

How do you handle conflict and confrontation when it inevitably arises? Is it possible to approach confrontation from the perspective of turning it into something constructive? It is if we can account for our own biases and set an intention beforehand. Listen to real artists talk about how they approach confrontation and learn what techniques you can take and apply to your own experiences.

Transcript
Matt Stagliano:

Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being

Matt Stagliano:

part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who

Matt Stagliano:

help each other think like an artist. By discussing creativity

Matt Stagliano:

as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone

Matt Stagliano:

has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need

Matt Stagliano:

some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What

Matt Stagliano:

you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily

Matt Stagliano:

discussions on the clubhouse app. If you like what you hear,

Matt Stagliano:

I encourage you to join our private Facebook group, or visit

Matt Stagliano:

us on the web at the artist forge COMM Now on to the show.

Nicole York:

Alright, Joe, well, welcome to Morning work and

Nicole York:

photo talk with the artists Forge. It's Monday, the sun is

Nicole York:

shining, I actually got to walk beginning in the sun this

Nicole York:

morning instead of in the darkness. So this is lovely for

Nicole York:

me. And I did. I did not do well yesterday with daylight savings

Nicole York:

time. But today seems to have been a little bit of a different

Nicole York:

story. I stayed up later than I should hoping I would sleep in

Nicole York:

later than I should. And I did. So that's good for me. And

Nicole York:

hopefully, good for you. I'm really excited about this week,

Nicole York:

because we're going to be tackling something we have only

Nicole York:

talked about in passing, while we talked about other things.

Nicole York:

But this week, it is going to be the focus. And that is dealing

Nicole York:

with confrontation. And I have a lot of thoughts on this one, I

Nicole York:

actually woke up yesterday morning with this in my head.

Nicole York:

And I'm not certain what caused it to be the focus of like, hey,

Nicole York:

when you're dreaming, this is what you should be dreaming

Nicole York:

about. And it would be a really great idea if you woke up

Nicole York:

thinking about it as well. But for whatever reason it did. And

Nicole York:

so here we are, this week, we're going to be talking about

Nicole York:

confrontation, we're going to talk about how to manage it, how

Nicole York:

to set our intention, when we are having to go into a

Nicole York:

confrontational situation, we're going to talk about how being

Nicole York:

effective is more important than being right, we're going to talk

Nicole York:

about how to get on the same side. So how to basically,

Nicole York:

instead of going at it as a war, how to bring the two sides of

Nicole York:

the confrontation together. So you're attacking the problem

Nicole York:

with two people instead of one, or five or 10. Or however this

Nicole York:

confrontation is working. So we're really going to be diving

Nicole York:

into the weeds this week. And these, this topic is important

Nicole York:

because it covers a lot of aspects of being not only a

Nicole York:

business person, because you have things like customer

Nicole York:

service and business to business relationships, that are just

Nicole York:

asking for some kind of confrontation to happen at some

Nicole York:

point. As we talked about last week, we also have an online

Nicole York:

presence, we have forward facing client facing presence, whether

Nicole York:

that's, you know, commercials, social media, billboards,

Nicole York:

whatever it is. And there's always going to be somebody who

Nicole York:

doesn't like what we have to say, or what we've done, or how

Nicole York:

we've worded something who doesn't get our sense of humor,

Nicole York:

or just for whatever reason is feeling spicy that day? And is

Nicole York:

going to let us know about it. So how do we deal when that kind

Nicole York:

of thing happens. And there are a few things I want to begin

Nicole York:

with before we get into the meat of the conversation about

Nicole York:

confrontation. But the first thing is that we are going to

Nicole York:

walk into any confrontational situation with a few biases. And

Nicole York:

we need to be aware that those things are there. Recognize that

Nicole York:

your past your experiences, the environment you grew up in, the

Nicole York:

people you surround yourself with, all that stuff is going to

Nicole York:

set you up to have certain beliefs that you didn't

Nicole York:

necessarily purposefully build for yourself. And what I mean

Nicole York:

is, if the environment that you grew up in, told you that rich

Nicole York:

people are probably rich, because they cheated and

Nicole York:

schemed. They're selfish and greedy. And you know, they

Nicole York:

cannot be trusted. And then you try to have a conversation with

Nicole York:

somebody who holds the opposing view, you're just naturally

Nicole York:

going to default to arguments that support that bias.

Nicole York:

This is in all areas, this can be in anything in any area of

Nicole York:

your life, you can have these biases that you may not even

Nicole York:

realize. So recognize that that is going to happen. Because when

Nicole York:

you default to those things you may not actually be supporting

Nicole York:

an argument that you really truly believe you may just be

Nicole York:

parroting something that your tribe is used to thinking is

Nicole York:

true. So it's really important for us to be able to do some

Nicole York:

self examination, if we're going to handle confrontation wisely

Nicole York:

and effectively. And that also recognize that your ego will

Nicole York:

always be looking to defend its identity. So if you have a

Nicole York:

confrontation, that deals with who you are, as a person, who

Nicole York:

you are, as a business owner, a service person, anything that

Nicole York:

supports the identity, the core of the identity of who you

Nicole York:

understand you are, you're going to immediately get defensive,

Nicole York:

you're going to want to deny everything that that person has

Nicole York:

to say, because it's very important for you

Nicole York:

psychologically, to maintain an identity you can be comfortable

Nicole York:

with, and having to do any self examination, there is going to

Nicole York:

be a difficult thing to ask. So just be aware, before we get

Nicole York:

into the conversation, that you have these things going on with

Nicole York:

you. It's not, it's just a facet of human nature. And in order to

Nicole York:

be able to tackle confrontation wisely, we have to know that

Nicole York:

they're there. And then we really need to recognize that

Nicole York:

that is also going to be part of the tool sack the other person

Nicole York:

brings into this confrontation, they are going to have their own

Nicole York:

biases, they're going to have their own self identity that

Nicole York:

needs protecting. And so in a really strange way, walking into

Nicole York:

these confrontations is like walking into a psychological

Nicole York:

minefield. Because there are triggers, you're not going to be

Nicole York:

able to see that don't necessarily have anything to do

Nicole York:

with you, but have everything to do with the other person's

Nicole York:

beliefs, biases, self identity, all that kind of stuff. And

Nicole York:

we'll be able to talk more in depth about those kinds of

Nicole York:

things. As we get farther into the week, we're going to try to

Nicole York:

break down this conversation by kind of by by topic. So this has

Nicole York:

several topics, this idea of confrontation and how we deal

Nicole York:

with confrontation has several subtopics within it that we're

Nicole York:

going to go over today, the real focus is going to be on number

Nicole York:

one, being able to pay attention to to what you feel when

Nicole York:

confrontation begins to happen or when you know, confrontation

Nicole York:

is about to happen, and setting your intention for what you want

Nicole York:

this confrontation to look like and what you want the results to

Nicole York:

be. And I know it sounds strange to even think that that's

Nicole York:

something we can do. Because our natural reaction to

Nicole York:

confrontation is literally just to react, right. And most of the

Nicole York:

time it's in a self defense posture. Like initially, we want

Nicole York:

to defend ourselves. It's really hard to take some time to go

Nicole York:

wait a minute, okay. Clearly this person has an issue. Does

Nicole York:

it really have to do with me? Because you start slinging

Nicole York:

arrows right away, you've already decided what the outcome

Nicole York:

of this is going to be. So to kick us off today, I would love

Nicole York:

to hear from the panelists. What is your experience with

Nicole York:

confrontation as artists and business people? Have you

Nicole York:

noticed any trends? And do you ever take the time to set an

Nicole York:

intention? When you know you have a confrontation coming up,

Nicole York:

whether that's online, maybe somebody has responded to your

Nicole York:

work in a really negative way? Or asked you a really negative

Nicole York:

leading question. Maybe that's a customer service thing where you

Nicole York:

have a customer who just is not going to be happy. And they

Nicole York:

really have got a problem with the service, the product you

Nicole York:

whatever it is, or a business you've partnered with. I mean,

Nicole York:

of course this extends across all facets of our life as

Nicole York:

artists. So how do you deal and have you ever taken that time?

Nicole York:

Have you ever set an intention for what you want the outcome of

Nicole York:

a confrontation to be?

Bassam Sabbagh:

I love to chime in Nicole and the reason is I

Bassam Sabbagh:

it's just amazing that you have this subject this week it the

Bassam Sabbagh:

way you set up the subject and the and the opening comments you

Bassam Sabbagh:

made you describe to a tee the week I just lived in the last

Bassam Sabbagh:

five days. And I know it's not related to photography, but just

Bassam Sabbagh:

a quick story. I'm I'm a been hired to do some coaching for

Bassam Sabbagh:

management and employees at a aluminum smelter, where people

Bassam Sabbagh:

were out on strike for about three months a really bad strike

Bassam Sabbagh:

and hasn't happened in like 3040 years. And they're all back to

Bassam Sabbagh:

work now. And, and we're putting on welcome sessions to all these

Bassam Sabbagh:

employees. And I did six of them last week, and I witnessed six

Bassam Sabbagh:

of them with all the management team, including the general

Bassam Sabbagh:

manager of the plant. And how people want to talk about

Bassam Sabbagh:

predisposed to anger predisposed with assumptions about the other

Bassam Sabbagh:

side, the other party, the stuff I heard this week, and it

Bassam Sabbagh:

reminded me of my days, way back when I was running a plant and

Bassam Sabbagh:

when we did something wrong, and we had to present it, and sorry,

Bassam Sabbagh:

when we present the stuff to employees and everything we've

Bassam Sabbagh:

done was wrong. And everything was that you're absolutely

Bassam Sabbagh:

right. When we're predisposition, we bring out any

Bassam Sabbagh:

anything that ever happened in the past 30 years that can work

Bassam Sabbagh:

to our advantage today and show how angry you are and how long

Bassam Sabbagh:

the other side is. And now, so there isn't a better example of

Bassam Sabbagh:

a union management conflict, to bring out some of the things

Bassam Sabbagh:

that we need to watch out for as we go about our daily business.

Bassam Sabbagh:

And as we go about dealing with confrontation. So I just wanted

Bassam Sabbagh:

to point that out. It's fresh in my mind, and it's just, it's

Bassam Sabbagh:

just story after story after story, whether it's true or not

Bassam Sabbagh:

something that happened 20 years ago, totally irrelevant, becomes

Bassam Sabbagh:

the most important thing that the guy standing in front of me

Bassam Sabbagh:

just screwed up yesterday. So yeah, I just wanted to share

Bassam Sabbagh:

that it's not. It's not, you know, rich information for

Bassam Sabbagh:

everybody. But uh, it's been my week.

Nicole York:

Whoo. Well, it definitely sounds like you are

Nicole York:

going to be bringing some very relevant current experience into

Nicole York:

the conversation.

Bassam Sabbagh:

But, sorry, yeah, go ahead.

Nicole York:

Go ahead. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was just gonna say, as

Nicole York:

you're managing these things, how do you deal with managing

Nicole York:

the expectation of what do we want the end result of these?

Nicole York:

Because they're gonna be conflicts, these people are mad,

Nicole York:

right?

Bassam Sabbagh:

Yeah. Well, that's what I wanted to keep

Bassam Sabbagh:

going with. You know, management's intent. And the

Bassam Sabbagh:

best thing to do is to agree on the messaging and then not

Bassam Sabbagh:

deviate from the messaging, right? It's almost like being a

Bassam Sabbagh:

politician, unfortunately. And it's not, it's not, it's doesn't

Bassam Sabbagh:

sound right. But the only thing that works, because you cannot

Bassam Sabbagh:

fight that people are waiting, they wanna, they want to let go,

Bassam Sabbagh:

when I'm angry customers there, you get to let them talk. Right.

Bassam Sabbagh:

But it's all about the messaging and the consistency of the

Bassam Sabbagh:

messaging and the repeating the message. So, you know, we've had

Bassam Sabbagh:

three hours meetings with each group of 20 to 25 employees. And

Bassam Sabbagh:

we had five people presenting, including myself on as a as a as

Bassam Sabbagh:

an outside consultant. And we all had the same message. And we

Bassam Sabbagh:

would repeat the same words, and we would bring our, you know,

Bassam Sabbagh:

kind of twist it into whatever whatever the subject of the of

Bassam Sabbagh:

the of the conversation is. But it's about messaging, messaging,

Bassam Sabbagh:

messaging, messaging. Now, the interesting, interesting thing

Bassam Sabbagh:

is that everybody had to fill out a sheet, fill out a sheet

Bassam Sabbagh:

and say, how they feel about this, and are they engaged? Are

Bassam Sabbagh:

they are they nervous? Are they skeptical? You know, there was

Bassam Sabbagh:

some questions there. And then they had to put their own

Bassam Sabbagh:

comments. And interestingly, over 90% said, they're fully

Bassam Sabbagh:

engaged, they're ready to go back to work. Let's go. Right?

Bassam Sabbagh:

So you go to you, it's like your children, right? Your children

Bassam Sabbagh:

as they become teenagers, right? Where they start hating

Bassam Sabbagh:

everything to do with parents, and they're right about

Bassam Sabbagh:

everything. You can't give up on the right messages, because

Bassam Sabbagh:

they're actually listening. They're just not. They don't

Bassam Sabbagh:

want to admit it. Right? Sure. But you keep the message, you

Bassam Sabbagh:

keep the message, you keep the message, you do all the right

Bassam Sabbagh:

things. And it's funny, as they get into the 20s, they start

Bassam Sabbagh:

telling you, they start proving to you, they're showing you and

Bassam Sabbagh:

they start telling you that we were actually listening,

Bassam Sabbagh:

listening dead. And if they don't say it verbally, they say

Bassam Sabbagh:

it in their behaviors and how they conduct themselves and

Bassam Sabbagh:

sure, public so it's the same thing. It's about the right

Bassam Sabbagh:

messaging and not giving up on what is important to this is in

Bassam Sabbagh:

terms of confronting somebody who was mad, listening to them.

Bassam Sabbagh:

And so, it from a business perspective, I guess, we'll

Bassam Sabbagh:

probably end up going there this week, sometime, you know, what

Bassam Sabbagh:

are the things what are the things that you need to be

Bassam Sabbagh:

prepared in advance for for either angry customers or

Bassam Sabbagh:

whatever situation you may deal with? And what would be the key

Bassam Sabbagh:

messages to kind of stick by before getting into the

Bassam Sabbagh:

solution, you know, solution? Phase of the conference, they

Bassam Sabbagh:

don't have the confrontation? Sure. Because the the messages,

Bassam Sabbagh:

the messages during the confrontation could be slightly

Bassam Sabbagh:

different than when you get to solution. Right. All right.

Bassam Sabbagh:

That's my two cents that kick off the day.

Nicole York:

All right on. All right, so if y'all are just

Nicole York:

joining us today, this week, we are talking about dealing with

Nicole York:

confrontation as artists and business people, and folks who

Nicole York:

have an online presence, how do we deal with confrontation, and

Nicole York:

what we're really focused on today is first recognizing that

Nicole York:

each party is going to walk into this confrontation with their

Nicole York:

own biases, and an ego to defend. And so we have to

Nicole York:

recognize that we will be equally as guilty of sometimes

Nicole York:

making arguments or making responses that are purely guilt

Nicole York:

geared toward protecting our ego as the other side will be. So

Nicole York:

first, we have to be aware of that. And then today, we're

Nicole York:

really talking about setting an intention for what we would like

Nicole York:

the outcome of this confrontation to be. And here's

Nicole York:

why. If Matt says, You are the stupidest host that ever hosted

Nicole York:

a show, Nicole, and then I'm like, inside, I'm like, Man,

Nicole York:

that hurts my feelings. I need to destroy that right? Or I go,

Nicole York:

man, I don't know Matt would say something like this to me,

Nicole York:

Where's this coming from? If we're going to have a

Nicole York:

confrontation, I want to maintain my friendship. Right,

Nicole York:

like, so how do I do that. So you have a chance to set an

Nicole York:

intention for what you want the outcome of a confrontation to be

Nicole York:

you no one is coming. Because somebody has just approached you

Nicole York:

with something confrontational, that could be the call from your

Nicole York:

client saying, this is the ugliest album I've ever seen. I

Nicole York:

can't believe I just paid this much for this album, how could

Nicole York:

you sell this to me? And your response could be, this client

Nicole York:

is a jerk. These are the best albums I've ever sold. I'm going

Nicole York:

to go to all my online photography, friends, they're

Nicole York:

going to agree with me. And then I'm going to go hand this

Nicole York:

client, they're asked, because how dare they say something like

Nicole York:

that to me, or you take a step back. And to set that intention

Nicole York:

you go, I really want to keep this client. How do I approach

Nicole York:

this confrontation in a way that doesn't alienate, etc, etc.

Nicole York:

Right. So, some, before we go on to some of the other moderators,

Nicole York:

I want to ask you, I'm sure that setting an intention, I mean,

Nicole York:

obviously, management knew what they were hoping to get from

Nicole York:

welcoming folks back and doing all these sessions, right? Like,

Nicole York:

I'm sure they knew. We want employees to come back who are

Nicole York:

engaged, ready to go back to work, who feel like, you know,

Nicole York:

the grievances have been addressed, right? Like, how did

Nicole York:

you get to be a part of any of that part of the process? Or how

Nicole York:

did that work into preparing you guys to go into some of these

Nicole York:

meetings?

Bassam Sabbagh:

Well, I wasn't myself, but as the company that

Bassam Sabbagh:

hired me, they spend some time and we talked about it. I mean,

Bassam Sabbagh:

this is something you do, obviously a strategy here, and

Bassam Sabbagh:

they hired somebody from the outside to help them to help

Bassam Sabbagh:

them craft the messages and talk about a return to work process.

Bassam Sabbagh:

And it's exactly all of these things, this is what's the

Bassam Sabbagh:

message, we know they're going to be upset, we repeat the

Bassam Sabbagh:

message. And then we have a series of one on one with their

Bassam Sabbagh:

supervisors. And then we bring in coaches to help the

Bassam Sabbagh:

supervisors deal and manage them. And that's my role. My

Bassam Sabbagh:

role here is work with with management and others on the

Bassam Sabbagh:

coaching and accompanying them through it. So there is a plan

Bassam Sabbagh:

in place. But you're not, but you have to have thick skin

Bassam Sabbagh:

right? In the sense that you've got to be able to take it

Bassam Sabbagh:

because even if you're on an amazing business of photography,

Bassam Sabbagh:

business, there's going to be that one customer that's going

Bassam Sabbagh:

to rip you to pieces. And you really do have to have a thick

Bassam Sabbagh:

skin and be able to take it I'll give you an I don't know why

Bassam Sabbagh:

I'm, you know, one of the guys told that the general manager

Bassam Sabbagh:

the top guy in the plant was it was opening up the speech and

Bassam Sabbagh:

one of the guys went on for about 15 minutes, just blasting

Bassam Sabbagh:

everybody in management and everything that ever happened.

Bassam Sabbagh:

And at the end, he says if I were the CEO of this company, I

Bassam Sabbagh:

would not put you in charge of another plant ever. I don't have

Bassam Sabbagh:

a clue what you're still doing here. I am in front of 30 and

Bassam Sabbagh:

this guy has been taking this meeting from employees for like

Bassam Sabbagh:

28 meetings over the last three weeks. So what's what what's

Bassam Sabbagh:

your version of that in terms of having to have that that

Bassam Sabbagh:

fortitude and solitude to just listen to it and come up with

Bassam Sabbagh:

some some answer that that you obviously the opposite of what

Bassam Sabbagh:

you'd like to say that person right? It's about keeping your

Bassam Sabbagh:

composure I don't know if I answered your question. I got a

Bassam Sabbagh:

babbled on.

Nicole York:

Yeah, I mean, you definitely touched on it. I

Nicole York:

think, you know, what you really just made clear his base. simply

Nicole York:

that before all of this happened, management took the

Nicole York:

time to get together and figure out, how do we want this thing

Nicole York:

to go? And make sure that they brought in advice as well, like,

Nicole York:

how do you help us and guide us through the process of making

Nicole York:

this confrontation and in a place that's profitable, like we

Nicole York:

need to get back to work, these people need to be earning their

Nicole York:

incomes, all that kind of stuff. So obviously, the desirable

Nicole York:

conclusion was already talked about and planned for before all

Nicole York:

of this, except the meetings and everything took place. Exactly.

Nicole York:

Yeah.

Bassam Sabbagh:

But there's also another aspect that I'm sure

Bassam Sabbagh:

we'll talk about this week is how do you make things right,

Bassam Sabbagh:

right. Because at the end of the day, if there's a confrontation

Bassam Sabbagh:

in our business, there's, you know, there's we have to we have

Bassam Sabbagh:

to admit to ourselves, there's probably something behind it, I

Bassam Sabbagh:

am wrong somewhere, I did something wrong. And that was

Bassam Sabbagh:

evident here. I mean, management has done a lot of things wrong.

Bassam Sabbagh:

And people are fed up of hearing the same thing over and over. So

Bassam Sabbagh:

there's a lesson learned there in terms of how long can you

Bassam Sabbagh:

keep that? Yes, you do that upfront, you manage the

Bassam Sabbagh:

confrontation? The confrontation? Well, you've sent

Bassam Sabbagh:

all the right messages. But then if you don't follow through with

Bassam Sabbagh:

the right actions after you're in a worse situation, and and

Bassam Sabbagh:

so. So yeah, having a plan for concrete action to right the

Bassam Sabbagh:

wrongs in whatever the definition of that is, is a key

Bassam Sabbagh:

part of successful confrontation, I would say.

Nicole York:

Yeah, I would absolutely agree. And we

Nicole York:

definitely will get into that as we move on in the week, because,

Nicole York:

obviously, that is a key to the end of the whole equation. So

Nicole York:

yeah, thank you so much for that Sammy has some really

Nicole York:

interesting insights there, particularly in the position

Nicole York:

that you're in now. And I know even with your corporate

Nicole York:

background, that was something you had to keep firmly in mind.

Nicole York:

So Matt, cat, Becca, how do you deal with confrontations that

Nicole York:

arise either, you know, in your online presence and in your

Nicole York:

business with customers, etc? And have you ever taken the time

Nicole York:

to set an intention for how you would like that confrontation or

Nicole York:

that conflict to end before you end up getting into one?

Matt Stagliano:

So absolutely. And, you know, I think you'd

Matt Stagliano:

mentioned a lot of things it was it was fascinating to listen to

Matt Stagliano:

the Psalm. And I'm really interested to see what happens

Matt Stagliano:

this week. But you know, what you were talking about earlier

Matt Stagliano:

in your monologue, about being aware of biases. And, you know,

Matt Stagliano:

are you parroting something you heard what emotions are being

Matt Stagliano:

stirred up? Where's your ego going all of that stuff? Well,

Matt Stagliano:

for me, I know that I used to have quite a temper, I used to

Matt Stagliano:

take everything as an offense to me. And it was only when I

Matt Stagliano:

started to really do the heavy mental work and deconstruct the

Matt Stagliano:

ego and really start to understand myself, that I

Matt Stagliano:

realized that most confrontations that I were in,

Matt Stagliano:

that I was in, whether I was the aggressor, or the defendant, if

Matt Stagliano:

you will, was always a projection of something that I

Matt Stagliano:

had going on, right? I didn't like the way somebody ran a

Matt Stagliano:

project, or I didn't like what somebody said to me online, or,

Matt Stagliano:

you know, people didn't like the way that I spoke to them.

Matt Stagliano:

Whatever the case was, it was always a projection of me, it

Matt Stagliano:

wasn't my fault, right. And I was instantly on the defensive.

Matt Stagliano:

And I started to really understand that I wasn't putting

Matt Stagliano:

myself in the situation where I could deal with confrontation in

Matt Stagliano:

a healthy way. So part of that was the stress, inoculation of

Matt Stagliano:

having those things, even in mock types of confrontations.

Matt Stagliano:

What are all the permutations that someone could come up to

Matt Stagliano:

me, and challenge me in one way, shape, or form, whether it's

Matt Stagliano:

physically, mentally, whatever it is, and I started to think

Matt Stagliano:

through a lot of those permutations, I would put myself

Matt Stagliano:

into situations where whether it was hand to hand fighting, or

Matt Stagliano:

mental tests or problem solving, or, you know, something to

Matt Stagliano:

challenge my normal behavior. And behaviors are easy to

Matt Stagliano:

change. I'm going to go down a little bit of a tangent right

Matt Stagliano:

here just for a second, I'm going to come back to it. But

Matt Stagliano:

I'm sure that that Nicole, you've probably heard of this,

Matt Stagliano:

and I'm sure several people have about cognitive hierarchy,

Matt Stagliano:

right? And what the model of that looks like. And for those

Matt Stagliano:

of you that don't know, think of it like whatever food pyramid

Matt Stagliano:

triangle that you want to look at. And at the very top are the

Matt Stagliano:

behaviors that you do every day. And those are really easy to

Matt Stagliano:

change. Those are, you know, getting up early, eating right,

Matt Stagliano:

exercising, all that sort of stuff, all the way down at the

Matt Stagliano:

bottom. You have your values, these are the things that you

Matt Stagliano:

hold true, these are your core elements of belief. So it's

Matt Stagliano:

very, very easy to change behaviors at the top of the

Matt Stagliano:

model, it's very, very, very difficult to change values at

Matt Stagliano:

the bottom. And think of values as something more along the

Matt Stagliano:

lines of religion, or, you know, I believe the universe to be a

Matt Stagliano:

certain way, in between the behaviors and the values, you

Matt Stagliano:

have attitudes, you have norms, you have beliefs, you have

Matt Stagliano:

intentions, right, all of that stuff mixed in. But it really

Matt Stagliano:

comes down to your value system as to how you're going to deal

Matt Stagliano:

with confrontation. So a lot of times, you know, the way that I

Matt Stagliano:

try to approach confrontation, if I set an intention, if I know

Matt Stagliano:

what's going to happen beforehand, hey, I'm about to

Matt Stagliano:

put this out, some people might react negatively, I've already

Matt Stagliano:

got it in my mind that I've got a pretty good sense of self, I

Matt Stagliano:

know who I am, there's very little that someone can say to

Matt Stagliano:

me directly, that's really going to affect me, it's it takes a

Matt Stagliano:

lot. It used to not take much at all. Now I've got a pretty good

Matt Stagliano:

sense of self. And I'm pretty happy with the person that I am.

Matt Stagliano:

So regardless of what I do, I know that I'm acting with values

Matt Stagliano:

that I hold dear in mind. So when someone comes to me, and

Matt Stagliano:

they confront me with something and said that, you know, I did

Matt Stagliano:

something wrong, or I am wrong, or my beliefs are wrong,

Matt Stagliano:

whatever, that's perfectly fine. That's their opinion. And we all

Matt Stagliano:

know what opinions are like. So for me, the way that I generally

Matt Stagliano:

approach a confrontation, if it is some sort of verbal

Matt Stagliano:

disagreement, you know, without violence in in the mix, but if

Matt Stagliano:

it's some sort of verbal disagreement, what I try to do

Matt Stagliano:

is make people feel validated. Right? I repeat back to them

Matt Stagliano:

exactly what they said to me word for word. And I asked them,

Matt Stagliano:

I said, is that what you said? And most of the times, they're

Matt Stagliano:

gonna say, Yeah, that's what I said. And then I follow it up

Matt Stagliano:

with, is that what you mean? And it gives them pause. Because a

Matt Stagliano:

lot of times what people say,

Matt Stagliano:

is not what they mean. And if you rephrase things to say, you

Matt Stagliano:

know, is that what you meant? And they then have to defend

Matt Stagliano:

what it is that they said that they meant, and that can send

Matt Stagliano:

the conversation a completely different direction, a lot of

Matt Stagliano:

times, they'll back down, things will calm down a little bit

Matt Stagliano:

more. So it was a really effective tool that I used in

Matt Stagliano:

managing in the corporate world, when someone would come to me

Matt Stagliano:

and they would express their problem. And I'd repeat it back

Matt Stagliano:

to them. Is that what you said? Yep. All right. Well, is that

Matt Stagliano:

what you meant? Well, no, not really. I said, Okay, well, what

Matt Stagliano:

did you mean, and it would take the confrontation down a

Matt Stagliano:

different path, oftentimes, de escalating. So again, just to

Matt Stagliano:

kind of sum up my long soliloquy here, you've got to think about

Matt Stagliano:

what your values are, in what the other person's values are.

Matt Stagliano:

And you might be able to change their behavior, it's very

Matt Stagliano:

difficult for you to change their values. So you've got to

Matt Stagliano:

find the common ground, where you both start at a value level

Matt Stagliano:

that you agree upon. And then start thinking about, where do

Matt Stagliano:

you go from there. If you can't meet at that value level, it's

Matt Stagliano:

very difficult to make progress in the confrontation, without it

Matt Stagliano:

being, you know, a big ego driven thing. So with that,

Matt Stagliano:

Nicole, I'll kind of turn it back over to you. But that's

Matt Stagliano:

just kind of the way that I've dealt with confrontation.

Nicole York:

Oh, there was so much good stuff in there, Matt,

Nicole York:

I mean, so many great things to look at and consider and to pick

Nicole York:

apart. And I absolutely agree with you. I think being able to

Nicole York:

do that work first. That allows you to come face to face with

Nicole York:

some of your own propensities, your own biases, your own belief

Nicole York:

systems, etc. And recognize that there are parts of you that

Nicole York:

manifest some behaviors that you did not build for yourself. And

Nicole York:

as an example, one of the reasons that this is an

Nicole York:

interesting conversation, for me personally, is because my

Nicole York:

ability to manage confrontation with people is a trauma

Nicole York:

response. From having parents who fought when I was little, I

Nicole York:

lived in a really contentious household. My mom and dad, they

Nicole York:

loved us. They loved each other, but they were young, stubborn,

Nicole York:

passionate people. And so when one was right, the other was

Nicole York:

absolutely wrong. And there was gonna be a screaming match

Nicole York:

involved. And it wasn't always very nice. There was never

Nicole York:

physical violence, but certainly, certainly verbal

Nicole York:

stuff. And the reason that happened is because both of my

Nicole York:

parents had trauma From the way that they were raised, so my mom

Nicole York:

was always looking to protect. And her protection came in the

Nicole York:

form of verbal aggression, right? Like, don't talk to the

Nicole York:

kids that way, because her father was abusive, and so the

Nicole York:

teeth would come out. My father was the same. So there was

Nicole York:

always a lot of that going on when I was really small. So my

Nicole York:

default reaction to confrontation is to fix things

Nicole York:

and deescalate. And how can I really pay attention to what's

Nicole York:

happening around me, the tone, the body language, all of that

Nicole York:

kind of stuff, I began to be able to read that kind of thing

Nicole York:

really well. And so it also means that I had to pay close

Nicole York:

attention to what people meant, and not what they said. So that

Nicole York:

I could come along and try to fix it and smooth things over.

Nicole York:

And I got pretty good at it to the point where I couldn't

Nicole York:

manage my family, before the bad thing happened pretty well, it

Nicole York:

didn't always work, because I was young, and they were

Nicole York:

parents. And I was not, but pretty well. And so a lot of my

Nicole York:

experience that I brought over into my adult life, as a

Nicole York:

diplomat, is a result of that trauma and having to learn how

Nicole York:

to manage people. So I didn't have to be afraid all the time.

Nicole York:

And, of course, that's been refined as an adult. But it is a

Nicole York:

perfect example of the fact that there are a lot of things that

Nicole York:

will get built into us that we did not choose to build. And we

Nicole York:

have to be able to look at that stuff. And recognize that it

Nicole York:

exists. Because if we don't, every conflict is going to turn

Nicole York:

out the same way. It's going to turn on into for somebody you

Nicole York:

know, like you met, when you said, you know, you, you

Nicole York:

immediately had to protect yourself, every conflict is

Nicole York:

going to turn into a fight, because any type of correction,

Nicole York:

or any issue people bring to you is automatically going to become

Nicole York:

an attack on your character, even when that wasn't their

Nicole York:

intention. Because that's what we are adding to the equation. I

Nicole York:

am always adding to the equation, this could turn into a

Nicole York:

fight. How do I manage this, so that it doesn't, so if we don't

Nicole York:

take the time to figure those things out about ourselves,

Nicole York:

we're gonna end up with consequences that we don't

Nicole York:

intend. And that's why taking the time to set an intention is

Nicole York:

so important. Before you wade into battle, if your intention

Nicole York:

is to salvage, what can be salvaged, your approach is going

Nicole York:

to be a whole lot different than if your intention is to go in

Nicole York:

for a scorched earth campaign, right. And if you want to

Nicole York:

salvage things, but you don't have the tools, because scorched

Nicole York:

earth is all you've ever done, you need to know that, because

Nicole York:

you need to go be able to build those tools, which means doing

Nicole York:

exactly what the company besom is working with, bring in

Nicole York:

somebody who can help you and guide you through that process.

Nicole York:

So you know what it looks like. That's why this conversation is

Nicole York:

so dang valuable guys.

Nicole York:

So Matt, I'm so grateful for all the things that you just said, I

Nicole York:

think there was so much important stuff in there. And I

Nicole York:

appreciate that you can be here as an example of somebody who

Nicole York:

does the work, and has done the work and knows what it feels

Nicole York:

like to have to step away from your ego, and your biases and

Nicole York:

all of the other things that kind of force you into a certain

Nicole York:

path of action. So if you were to share with folks any

Nicole York:

resources that they might be able to look at, to start on

Nicole York:

that journey, so that they can become better at managing

Nicole York:

confrontations and of course, all the other benefits that come

Nicole York:

along with it. Where do you think people should start

Nicole York:

looking?

Matt Stagliano:

It's a really good question. And I'm sure I

Matt Stagliano:

can go back through my library and pick out some of the books

Matt Stagliano:

that I've read about conversational techniques and

Matt Stagliano:

learning that but a lot of my work a lot of what helped me

Matt Stagliano:

truly and I've said this before a million times is therapy,

Matt Stagliano:

right? unpacking my own ship, understanding myself and

Matt Stagliano:

understanding what it is that gives me triggers in why rarely

Matt Stagliano:

is it the fact that my coffee at Dunkin Donuts is too hot, and

Matt Stagliano:

that's gonna ruin my morning. There's something a little bit

Matt Stagliano:

deeper than that, that is causing me to go off the rails

Matt Stagliano:

and run back into Dunkin Donuts and yell at the people right?

Matt Stagliano:

There's something a little bit deeper than that. So it's

Matt Stagliano:

understanding what are your triggers, but more importantly,

Matt Stagliano:

what are your values? What are you not willing to compromise

Matt Stagliano:

on? Because those are core to who you are and what your soul

Matt Stagliano:

feels like? Not enough Certainly your ego, but what guides you?

Matt Stagliano:

And then start to look at how is that ego overlay, really start

Matt Stagliano:

to bring in the day to day differences, the projections

Matt Stagliano:

that you might have. So what I'll do, Nicole is I'll go back

Matt Stagliano:

because I just have a ton of books. And I'm sure you know,

Matt Stagliano:

David does as well, we could probably utilize him as a

Matt Stagliano:

resource for some of this stuff. But what I'll do is I'll go back

Matt Stagliano:

through my library and see if I can't come up with some good

Matt Stagliano:

book titles and authors and put those into the Facebook group.

Matt Stagliano:

And, you know, let folks kind of decide for themselves, but for

Matt Stagliano:

me, it was quite frankly, therapy and working through my

Matt Stagliano:

own stuff first, no, confrontation doesn't bother me

Matt Stagliano:

at all.

Nicole York:

Outstanding. Yes. And if you're not part of the

Nicole York:

Facebook group, look up at the top, I just, I forgot to add the

Nicole York:

link earlier. Sorry, guys. The link to the artists forge

Nicole York:

Facebook group is up there at the top. So go hang out in

Nicole York:

there. We'll be looking forward to Matt suggestions for books.

Nicole York:

And cat, Becca, the question now falls to you just to refresh

Nicole York:

guys, if you're just joining us, today, we're talking about how

Nicole York:

we can manage confrontation, and how setting an intention before

Nicole York:

you weighed into a confrontation is really important to being

Nicole York:

able to respond properly. When somebody comes to you with an

Nicole York:

issue, whether that's a customer who had a problem with your

Nicole York:

service, whether that's somebody who didn't like what you had to

Nicole York:

say online, whatever it is, we need to be able to manage these

Nicole York:

situations in a way that's healthy and effective. And

Nicole York:

setting an intention before you go swinging your sword is really

Nicole York:

important. So Pat, Becca, do you have any thoughts on one,

Nicole York:

confrontation management, but to making sure that you set that

Nicole York:

intention for how you want things to end up before you wade

Nicole York:

into battle?

Cat Ford-Coates:

I think it depends on, you know, where that

Cat Ford-Coates:

that's coming from? If we're talking about a you know, a

Cat Ford-Coates:

client, right? It's

Nicole York:

always, always,

Cat Ford-Coates:

always, no matter what, because of a lack

Cat Ford-Coates:

of education on my part. Like I don't care what it is. It could

Cat Ford-Coates:

be I don't like this retouch. It could be I don't want to spend

Cat Ford-Coates:

this much it could be you're a bad person, doesn't matter.

Cat Ford-Coates:

Because at the end of the day, it's okay, where did I missed up

Cat Ford-Coates:

for this to be the result. So I try in, you know, that intention

Cat Ford-Coates:

is always meeting that client where they are understanding,

Cat Ford-Coates:

and that I have to be the one to take responsibility for whatever

Cat Ford-Coates:

X, Y or Z is, and then taking it from there. Because if a client

Cat Ford-Coates:

is upset, it's because I didn't do something in my process that

Cat Ford-Coates:

made them feel safe. There's uncertainty somewhere. So I'm

Cat Ford-Coates:

going to look at that from a space of okay. Where did I go

Cat Ford-Coates:

wrong here? And how do I make this right? And that's the

Cat Ford-Coates:

intention. Always, how do I make this right. And, you know, I

Cat Ford-Coates:

think I've talked about it in this group before I had a client

Cat Ford-Coates:

who ended up with like this. Basically, knockdown drag out

Cat Ford-Coates:

with their spouse over amount of money that she spent, and

Cat Ford-Coates:

everything had been ordered, and all of these things, and I ended

Cat Ford-Coates:

up with a barrage of text messages and voicemails about

Cat Ford-Coates:

how I'm a terrible person. I'm a shyster all of these things. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

we found a common ground, but it took some time. Right? It was

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, No, I got to adhere to my contract, and then still be the

Cat Ford-Coates:

bigger person by allowing some negotiation to happen,

Cat Ford-Coates:

regardless of my loss of funds on what I'd already spent on the

Cat Ford-Coates:

product itself. But everything boiled down to, you know, I

Cat Ford-Coates:

can't take responsibility for your issues with your husband,

Cat Ford-Coates:

but I can't take responsibility for you not understanding why

Cat Ford-Coates:

this has to be a thing now. Right? So when I'm able to look

Cat Ford-Coates:

at this issue with a client situation, if I'm go ahead and

Cat Ford-Coates:

I'm able to take some ownership of that, and then come to the

Cat Ford-Coates:

client, like Okay, let's go ahead and get you exactly what

Cat Ford-Coates:

you need, what you want. What do you need understanding with?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Like, how can I be in service to you right now, so that we can

Cat Ford-Coates:

resolve. That's the only intention that I set when it

Cat Ford-Coates:

comes to client now personal, it's really more about just

Cat Ford-Coates:

understanding the values behind the confrontation in the first

Cat Ford-Coates:

place. Like Matt was talking about, like, you know, once I

Cat Ford-Coates:

understand what that is, whether it's from a place of trauma

Cat Ford-Coates:

response, right, Nicole If it's from a place of just

Cat Ford-Coates:

understanding a person, it then becomes like, Okay, how do I

Cat Ford-Coates:

make this right with you? Do I even want to? And that's a big

Cat Ford-Coates:

one that I think a lot of us struggle with, at least as

Cat Ford-Coates:

adults in personal relationships is, do I give a shit right now?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Do I really give a shit?

Nicole York:

Yeah, I think I'm so glad that you said that.

Nicole York:

Because I love the fact first, that you have set an intention

Nicole York:

for confrontation with clients, that applies across the board.

Nicole York:

So you don't have to waste any of your cognitive daily

Nicole York:

percentage or your executive function, trying to figure out

Nicole York:

what intention you need to set because if it's a customer, you

Nicole York:

already know what the intention is going to be, which means you

Nicole York:

know, what the battlefield looks like, and you know, where you

Nicole York:

are at on it. And this is all really important information.

Nicole York:

Anytime you are about to have a conflict. So I really, really

Nicole York:

love that. And I think that it's highly, incredibly important for

Nicole York:

us as business people to take the time to ask ourselves that

Nicole York:

question. If this confrontation is coming from appliance, what

Nicole York:

is the baseline value that it applies to? And is it always how

Nicole York:

do I make this right, and taking the time to have that personal

Nicole York:

responsibility? Because obviously, we can't change our

Nicole York:

clients. Like, you know, Matt was saying earlier chains of

Nicole York:

changing somebody else's beliefs, man, I mean, changing

Nicole York:

their behaviors hard enough, helping even helping somebody

Nicole York:

change their behavior who wants to, can be difficult, because

Nicole York:

it's built on a foundation of belief, right? But getting all

Nicole York:

the way down there to the bottom and trying to shift those

Nicole York:

stones. That is some difficult shit right there. So really

Nicole York:

important for us to take the time to recognize those things.

Nicole York:

And to have that personal responsibility beforehand,

Nicole York:

because we know we can do the work for ourselves. We can't do

Nicole York:

it for our clients, but we can do it for ourselves. And that

Nicole York:

gives us a lot of power, and agency in the situation. So I

Nicole York:

really love that you mentioned that. And then the next part

Nicole York:

that I thought was so important, is when you're setting that

Nicole York:

intention for a group of folks that are not included in that

Nicole York:

blanket statement. Maybe that's somebody who commented on an

Nicole York:

article you wrote online, or a person responding to a photo of

Nicole York:

yours, or whatever it is, for any reason. Do you care? Is Is

Nicole York:

that something you even wish to salvage? And are? Is it a

Nicole York:

confrontation worth waiting into? Which is why this question

Nicole York:

of setting the intentions becomes so important. There are

Nicole York:

times when and this is just a personal example from my life.

Nicole York:

But when I was writing for F stoppers, there were times when

Nicole York:

people would comment on articles that I had written. And it was

Nicole York:

just bogus, totally bullshit that I didn't care, I wouldn't

Nicole York:

even bother to respond, because it was not worth the mental

Nicole York:

effort and the calories right? But then there were other people

Nicole York:

who would comment things that I had to stop and think about and

Nicole York:

go, Okay, wait a minute, if somebody says something like

Nicole York:

this, and other folks come along and believe what this person has

Nicole York:

to say, is that an outcome that I'm comfortable letting slide,

Nicole York:

or do I believe, based on my values, that I have a moral

Nicole York:

obligation to say, wait a minute, this is not correct.

Nicole York:

This is not how we talk about this group of people, or

Nicole York:

whatever it is, is this a confrontation that I want to get

Nicole York:

into? And if I do, do I really believe that I can change this

Nicole York:

person's mind? Or is my intention to make sure that I'm

Nicole York:

an advocate for later folks who will come along and read this

Nicole York:

comment thread, so that they don't get pulled into this path

Nicole York:

without somebody there as a signpost to say, wait a minute,

Nicole York:

consider for a fact for a second that this might not be correct.

Nicole York:

So that's why doing exactly what you said, and asking yourself

Nicole York:

like, do I even care? Is this something worth getting into?

Nicole York:

It's such an important part of setting your intentions before

Nicole York:

you decide whether you're going to engage in any conflict, and

Nicole York:

if you are, how you're going to go about it. So Becca, what

Nicole York:

about you? Do you have any thoughts on conflict or

Nicole York:

management, confrontation management? And what setting

Nicole York:

intentions look like in that sphere?

Bekka Bjorke:

Well, straight up I'm not going to pretend to have

Bekka Bjorke:

some articulate monologue of my own, because confrontation is

Bekka Bjorke:

definitely something that I personally struggle with. And my

Bekka Bjorke:

approach to confrontation in different spheres is very

Bekka Bjorke:

different. And it's something I've have spent a lot of time

Bekka Bjorke:

thinking about, and being introspective about, because of

Bekka Bjorke:

how my responses to different forms of confrontation are When

Bekka Bjorke:

it comes to work, I actually generally feel much more

Bekka Bjorke:

confident. Because I think of the, the level of mastery or

Bekka Bjorke:

expertise or knowledge that I have, particularly in my own

Bekka Bjorke:

business, but when I've worked in other businesses as well,

Bekka Bjorke:

where I know the ins and outs of what the business is, what it

Bekka Bjorke:

means, what our goals and intentions are, and what our

Bekka Bjorke:

customers need to get, in order to then you know, meet those

Bekka Bjorke:

needs. And so I'm generally pretty comfortable. In those

Bekka Bjorke:

kinds of situations, I want to make sure that customers are

Bekka Bjorke:

heard, I want to make sure that they feel valued. And you know,

Bekka Bjorke:

again, coming from that sense of empathy and service, when

Bekka Bjorke:

dealing with someone around money, right, and then you know,

Bekka Bjorke:

making sure that they feel comfortable in that kind of

Bekka Bjorke:

exchange. interpersonal conflicts and confrontations,

Bekka Bjorke:

like things with family much more uncomfortable for me, and I

Bekka Bjorke:

think maybe, because the stakes are very different, you know,

Bekka Bjorke:

there's things that have a little more value than work at

Bekka Bjorke:

stake there, there's more emotions at stake. And they can

Bekka Bjorke:

be a little bit more difficult. And I guess, to kind of give an

Bekka Bjorke:

example here, one of my sons, I have a lot of conflict with one

Bekka Bjorke:

of my sons. And it has been a really long process, and we're

Bekka Bjorke:

still working at it about you know, how to defuse these kinds

Bekka Bjorke:

of situations. And, you know, I, I get mad, I get real mad at him

Bekka Bjorke:

about, you know, his behavior and the things that he says, and

Bekka Bjorke:

I have to put a lot of practice into, you know, as Matt kind of

Bekka Bjorke:

mentioned, you know, controlling my own behavior there. And, you

Bekka Bjorke:

know, having to look at why am I getting upset, you know, what

Bekka Bjorke:

values Am I willing to budge or not budge on here, and, you

Bekka Bjorke:

know, really looking at how does my behavior affect his behavior

Bekka Bjorke:

in turn, but it's it's not as kind of instinctual process as

Bekka Bjorke:

it is in the workplace, which is interesting to think about. And

Bekka Bjorke:

that, you know, and then there's other situations with, say,

Bekka Bjorke:

strangers, where, again, those stakes are very different, you

Bekka Bjorke:

know, things like getting an argument online, or, you know,

Bekka Bjorke:

maybe something in person writing, if you see someone

Bekka Bjorke:

saying something, you know, wrong or that you disagree with

Bekka Bjorke:

in a social situation. In those situations, again, I'm much more

Bekka Bjorke:

comfortable being confrontational, if someone is

Bekka Bjorke:

doing something that I think is genuinely, morally or factually

Bekka Bjorke:

wrong, I am absolutely okay with confronting them. And

Bekka Bjorke:

essentially being the bad guy or being the aggressor in certain

Bekka Bjorke:

situations, because that matters to me on a moral level. And I

Bekka Bjorke:

don't give a single shit if someone gets mad about it. And,

Bekka Bjorke:

you know, again, when we think about intention, like what is my

Bekka Bjorke:

intention in being aggressive in certain situations that I think

Bekka Bjorke:

our, you know, a pourraient, if you will, it's less about

Bekka Bjorke:

outcome. And, you know, kind of, like you said, being that

Bekka Bjorke:

signpost and making sure that there is a statement made, and

Bekka Bjorke:

maybe it sticks, hopefully, it sticks. But the intention, and

Bekka Bjorke:

the goal, more or less being that someone says something to

Bekka Bjorke:

someone who's behaving wrongly. So yeah, I mean, again, my

Bekka Bjorke:

behavior is all over the map all over the map. And it's it's

Bekka Bjorke:

interesting to think about, and it's definitely something that

Bekka Bjorke:

I, you know, have to spend more time working on in certain

Bekka Bjorke:

situations and thinking more about.

Nicole York:

Man, there's so much valuable, valuable stuff

Nicole York:

this morning, because I think, in the audience today, if you're

Nicole York:

just joining us is we're talking about how we manage conflict,

Nicole York:

how we manage confrontation, as artists, as business people, and

Nicole York:

everything that we do in our business also ultimately comes

Nicole York:

down to our personal set of beliefs. Right. So this is a

Nicole York:

multifaceted topic that is going to take the rest of the week to

Nicole York:

dig into. And it's really interesting to me, that for most

Nicole York:

of us in our regular lives, which the framework is the

Nicole York:

intention, right? Like the framework is how do we approach

Nicole York:

this thing, with what outcome in mind, and a lot of us in our

Nicole York:

daily lives don't take a lot of time to ask ourselves whether we

Nicole York:

should have a framework when it comes to interpersonal conflict.

Nicole York:

I had to, I had to, and I'm still working on this for sure.

Nicole York:

But I had to build this early on with a with my oldest son,

Nicole York:

because he's really incredibly sensitive. And if I were to

Nicole York:

approach him the way that I can approach my middle child, you

Nicole York:

know, it would not work, he would not respond, he would be,

Nicole York:

he would be hurt. And then of course, hurt people hurt people,

Nicole York:

and he would withdraw from me. So I had to build a framework

Nicole York:

around how I approach that kiddo when there's something that we

Nicole York:

need to work on, or when there's behavior that needs to be dealt

Nicole York:

with, because I could not do what what nature naturally

Nicole York:

fitted me out for. I had to alternate my approach and the

Nicole York:

same is true for my husband. We have to approach him in a way

Nicole York:

that fits him. So we had to build that framework. And that's

Nicole York:

really what this conversation is about guys, it is about taking

Nicole York:

the time to ask ourselves, how do we approach a conflict, so

Nicole York:

that it becomes not just two people walking away with wounds,

Nicole York:

because more often than not, that is the result. And there

Nicole York:

have been times. So I probably should admit this about myself.

Nicole York:

My trauma response I mentioned before, is to be a negotiator, a

Nicole York:

diplomat, somebody who kind of fixes things for everybody, my

Nicole York:

natural, primary desired response, the thing I want to do

Nicole York:

is hurt people. And I know that's a terrible thing to admit

Nicole York:

about yourself. But when, for instance, somebody comes for a

Nicole York:

friend of mine, or says something to my kid, or, you

Nicole York:

know, if if they're, my, my first inclination is to go tear

Nicole York:

the person down. I don't know if this is something I get from my

Nicole York:

family, or if I just have a really strong self self

Nicole York:

protection response. But I would really like to say things to you

Nicole York:

that are going to hurt your feelings. I know that that is

Nicole York:

terrible. I recognize that about myself. And ultimately, that's

Nicole York:

not the person I want to be. So I guess in a way, you could

Nicole York:

consider that kind of an animalistic response. I want to

Nicole York:

prove to you that you're wrong, I want to be right, I want to be

Nicole York:

sitting on the top of the hierarchy. It's really difficult

Nicole York:

guys to admit that about yourself. And to be able to say,

Nicole York:

my very first my knee jerk reaction without thinking is

Nicole York:

going to be self protection, it's going to be scare you

Nicole York:

enough to make you go away. Make you never want to say things

Nicole York:

like that to me or the people I care about again, that's a

Nicole York:

difficult thing to admit about yourself. Because it's kind of

Nicole York:

sucky. But that is not the person I want to be. And so

Nicole York:

that's why conflict management is so important to me, because I

Nicole York:

know who I want to be. And I know the kind of person I want

Nicole York:

to build myself into. And over years of practicing, making sure

Nicole York:

that my intention when going into a conflict is not that I

Nicole York:

walk away unscathed, and the other person walks away broken,

Nicole York:

What a shitty thing to think, right? My intention, when going

Nicole York:

into a conflict is now to make friends of my enemies. I'm not

Nicole York:

always successful with this. There have been times in the

Nicole York:

past, where I have waged like, just walked into battle with two

Nicole York:

swords and no shield, right. But I will tell you every time that

Nicole York:

happens, I feel awful about it. Because I recognize now that

Nicole York:

response is not.

Nicole York:

That's not the person that I want to be. So that's work that

Nicole York:

I have to do continuously to retrain my knee jerk reaction,

Nicole York:

so that if for some reason I do end up getting into a

Nicole York:

confrontation, when I have not had the time to step back for a

Nicole York:

minute and go, Okay, wait a minute, how do I want to deal

Nicole York:

with this? So that it is it, the reaction, the response is in

Nicole York:

alignment with my deepest values. So this is a really big

Nicole York:

thing for us to talk about. And I know we're toward the end of

Nicole York:

our hour, but I want to make sure that the audience has a

Nicole York:

chance to share any of their thoughts on how y'all deal with

Nicole York:

conflict, and whether or not you take the time to set an

Nicole York:

intention for what you would like the end of this conflict to

Nicole York:

look like before you get into it. So I see our he's got his

Nicole York:

hand up. If anybody else has any thoughts, please go ahead and

Nicole York:

raise your hand. I want to bring you up and get those thoughts

Nicole York:

before we end for today.

Nicole York:

Sorry, guys, I'm trying to grab you but for some reason, it's

Nicole York:

not working for me. There we go. All right. All right. What are

Nicole York:

your thoughts today on confrontation management?

Ariel Schochet:

Hey, thanks for bring me up. hashey just caught

Ariel Schochet:

the tail end. But I really wanted to report you give some

Ariel Schochet:

thoughts quickly on what that guy said and what you just said

Ariel Schochet:

also really resonated with me and I do have a thought on it.

Ariel Schochet:

You know, Becky, you were talking about your interactions

Ariel Schochet:

with your son. And also just in general, your your your sense of

Ariel Schochet:

justice and not letting something you know, go by in a

Ariel Schochet:

setting that needs to be addressed. I sort of talk about

Ariel Schochet:

imposter syndrome with Jason right next to me, but I'm

Ariel Schochet:

immediately reminded of the Honor Code of several of the

Ariel Schochet:

military academies, which is to, you know, I will not lie, cheat,

Ariel Schochet:

or steal, nor tolerate those that do that second part being

Ariel Schochet:

really the most, to me the most relevant part in that, you know,

Ariel Schochet:

many of us just cannot tolerate extreme, you know, injustice,

Ariel Schochet:

and whether it's in whatever form and, and it just has to be

Ariel Schochet:

to be silent is to be complicit. At the same time, though, and

Ariel Schochet:

this is as relates to, you know, interpersonal relationships

Ariel Schochet:

other than the business, or family. So they told me, that

Ariel Schochet:

taught me recently that I should have it tattooed on myself or

Ariel Schochet:

something, but because I keep repeating myself over and over

Ariel Schochet:

again, is that you own your own actions and your own reactions,

Ariel Schochet:

but you can't own others actions or reactions. And a lot of

Ariel Schochet:

times, if I'm in a high conflict situation, and I respond, you

Ariel Schochet:

know, I'll, I'll, I'll, my knee jerk reaction will be to say,

Ariel Schochet:

Oh, well, you know, I had no choice but to respond, because

Ariel Schochet:

this person did XYZ. But the point being that at the end of

Ariel Schochet:

the day, you still need to own your actions and your reactions.

Ariel Schochet:

So in a sense, like, there's this balance between there have

Ariel Schochet:

to sort of strike between, you know, you know, reacting or not

Ariel Schochet:

reacting, you know, versus like this extreme, you know, value we

Ariel Schochet:

have of standing up for justice, in our own integrity. And I

Ariel Schochet:

guess, the part I wanted to add, you know, I think is really

Ariel Schochet:

important, is that when you're doing that equation, sort of

Ariel Schochet:

the, you know, implying a call, of, you know, the cost and sort

Ariel Schochet:

of, you know, basically cost it cost benefit analysis, when

Ariel Schochet:

you're trying, you know, that you have to do instinctively and

Ariel Schochet:

mentally instantly, it's really important, I think, to make sure

Ariel Schochet:

that you also put in that equation, the cost of reacting

Ariel Schochet:

on your own psyche. So you may get, you know, an instant, you

Ariel Schochet:

know, whether it's dopamine or whatever else, you know, hit

Ariel Schochet:

from, you know, you know, landing that, whether verbal or,

Ariel Schochet:

or actual opponent on somebody, you know, to react to something,

Ariel Schochet:

but there's a cost to that, that you have to then carry. And it's

Ariel Schochet:

important not to ignore that when, when, you know, like, like

Ariel Schochet:

Becky, you said, you don't give a shit about what somebody

Ariel Schochet:

thinks, you know, that? I well, I, I appreciate that very much.

Ariel Schochet:

But I just, you know, so I would urge you to, and all of us, and

Ariel Schochet:

I, you know, I struggled with this greatly is to make sure to,

Ariel Schochet:

you know, we talked about all the time, you have to value

Ariel Schochet:

yourself, you have to love yourself, you also have to make

Ariel Schochet:

sure in that framework to account for the cost on yourself

Ariel Schochet:

when you're doing it. Because if not, you're not taking care of

Ariel Schochet:

yourself at all. And one last thought it's really just

Ariel Schochet:

coincidental. I literally half an hour ago, read an article

Ariel Schochet:

that if you want to just chat with me anyway, and I'll send

Ariel Schochet:

you the link, basically, anyways, I'll, again, I'm not

Ariel Schochet:

gonna go full religious here at all. But he was an incredible

Ariel Schochet:

person, and if you don't know who he was, but he one of the

Ariel Schochet:

things that the sorry, the article was about his thoughts

Ariel Schochet:

on the book of Job from the Bible, which I've never read. I

Ariel Schochet:

don't really I mean, I know vaguely what it's about. But

Ariel Schochet:

here's the basic point that he came out of it is that the book

Ariel Schochet:

is about suffering, faith, rebellion, justice, provision of

Ariel Schochet:

a yield is and and kind of families and that was the

Ariel Schochet:

question, What's the book about? And his answer is that you don't

Ariel Schochet:

end up knowing more about, you know, your own suffering, and,

Ariel Schochet:

you know, sense of justice and you know, and what have you.

Ariel Schochet:

But rather, the goal is that it's something that we always

Ariel Schochet:

have to wrestle with. And our goal is just to be, you know,

Ariel Schochet:

able to be have more clarity when trying to do that work of

Ariel Schochet:

wrestling with it. So I thought it was just, you know, both what

Ariel Schochet:

you said was very powerful, and really hope that kind of rambled

Ariel Schochet:

on hope that made sense. Complete with you.

Nicole York:

Yeah, I mean, you know, you echoed Absolutely. My

Nicole York:

thoughts on the fact that we do have to ask ourselves, what is

Nicole York:

the cost not just to the other person, but to me, and I know

Nicole York:

that if I if I go into a confrontation, when I have not,

Nicole York:

go gone in thoughtfully, I'm going to feel bad about it

Nicole York:

later. I'm going to every act. This is another reason I read

Nicole York:

the book, atomic habits by James clear. One of the things he

Nicole York:

said, which I think is really powerful, is every action is a

Nicole York:

vote for the kind of person we want to be. And so, if I go and

Nicole York:

take an action that doesn't agree with my deepest held

Nicole York:

values, then what I'm doing is casting doubt upon whether or

Nicole York:

not I'm the kind of person that I want to be. And so if I wade

Nicole York:

into a confrontation with the intention of hurting somebody,

Nicole York:

what am I telling myself about me? And who I am as a person?

Nicole York:

And that is something that we absolutely right, we have to

Nicole York:

consider before we walk into any conflict, whether it's, you

Nicole York:

know, something with a customer who has an issue with their

Nicole York:

product, or whether that's, you know, somebody online, who has

Nicole York:

had something to say, and if we can walk away from those

Nicole York:

discussions, justified, that's a whole different feeling than if

Nicole York:

we walk away going, Why did I do that? It's not who I want to be.

Nicole York:

So well taken point, I want to make sure Oh, go ahead, Becca.

Bekka Bjorke:

Oh, I just wanted to, to toss out I loved all

Bekka Bjorke:

that. Ari. And yeah, I mean, on the topic of not giving a shit.

Bekka Bjorke:

I mean, it's always got to be situational. Right. And that's

Bekka Bjorke:

interesting that you brought up Elliot was, I mean, because I

Bekka Bjorke:

feel like that's something I'm Jewish. And I feel like

Bekka Bjorke:

approaches to confrontation, particularly, like, larger moral

Bekka Bjorke:

issues, like anti semitism, you know, or racism, or misogyny or

Bekka Bjorke:

whatever, are actually something that are discussed a lot in, in

Bekka Bjorke:

synagogue, and, you know, by rabbis and stuff like that. And

Bekka Bjorke:

often from kind of that place of, you know, looking at value

Bekka Bjorke:

and looking at, looking at how other people think, and

Bekka Bjorke:

understanding how they think. But yeah, so there's a lot of

Bekka Bjorke:

interesting stuff. So I think I just appreciated you bringing

Bekka Bjorke:

that up.

Nicole York:

Yep. And we will get into more of that side of

Nicole York:

the conversation this week, y'all. So be be here for that.

Nicole York:

Alright, Jean, what are your thoughts? And then we'll get to

Nicole York:

Erica, and then we'll close up.

Unknown:

Good morning. Good morning. It's thick. It's so

Unknown:

fascinating when all the is a is a Catholic boy, that all the

Unknown:

amazing and philosophical voices in my head seem to be Jewish

Unknown:

these days. I think that's awesome. So anyway, I love you

Unknown:

guys a lot. But in just a quick note on alignment, you know, I

Unknown:

don't remember if you mentioned it in this room, or how this

Unknown:

happened. But I just joined a local book club here in my in my

Unknown:

local neighborhood it did popped up in the Facebook group, and

Unknown:

they were looking for people to support it. And we all voted on

Unknown:

what book we wanted to read first. And the first book that

Unknown:

everyone voted on was atomic habits. So I have started that

Unknown:

book. And then Elon said you brought it up in this room. So I

Unknown:

thought that's funny. My first takeaway from the book is that

Unknown:

I'm terrified of baseball bats, but we'll see. I just wanted to

Unknown:

say real quick. So on conflict, obviously, I think I think

Unknown:

Bisaya and I probably have some, you know, really similar

Unknown:

experiences when it comes to conflict. So I kind of

Unknown:

automatically go to that world when I think about conflict,

Unknown:

although I've had I have had some experience with conflict

Unknown:

recently, you know, working with clients. So I do, I am

Unknown:

fascinated by, you know, how the two relate to each other. But my

Unknown:

thoughts on conflict come from this study or analysis that I've

Unknown:

tried to make of conflict in terms of a lifecycle. So you

Unknown:

know, where, where does conflict really begin. And I think it's

Unknown:

important sometimes to remember that the conflict doesn't always

Unknown:

begin at the point of ignition. Sometimes, you know, conflict, I

Unknown:

mean, I think really and truly conflict can be defined as, as a

Unknown:

result of building emotions. And that may be an instant building

Unknown:

of emotions, or it could be things brewing up over time. But

Unknown:

at some point, there's an inflection point where it just

Unknown:

it breaks over the levee, and then the visible conflict takes

Unknown:

place, but that conflict most likely has existed before it

Unknown:

actually becomes something tangible. And so what I have

Unknown:

tried to do in the past is figure out, you know, what,

Unknown:

where is the misunderstanding? Where's the misalignment? Where,

Unknown:

where are the things that could lead to, to conflict? And can I

Unknown:

address those things, identify those things, be savvy enough as

Unknown:

a leader to recognize those things before they become

Unknown:

conflict to a point that damages productivity are the result of

Unknown:

whatever it is that we're trying to accomplish? One of the things

Unknown:

that I was known for when I was a director was in the federal

Unknown:

government. We have you unions and the unions were very active.

Unknown:

And pretty much every manager. And I can speak mainly just

Unknown:

about the patent trademark office, pretty much every

Unknown:

manager at the patent trademark office lasts about two months

Unknown:

before they get their first union grievance filed against

Unknown:

them. The unions generate these grievances as a matter of, of

Unknown:

self survival. And so they're constantly pushing people to

Unknown:

create these grievances. And it's, it's pretty well

Unknown:

understood that you're going to get a grievance against you. I

Unknown:

did 18 months as a director, and never had one union grievance

Unknown:

filed against me. And about halfway through my, my turn

Unknown:

there,

Gene Sizemore:

appear manager came by and was just like, you

Gene Sizemore:

know, fascinating. He's like, I just don't understand it. Like,

Gene Sizemore:

you know, you've got the largest division in the patent trademark

Gene Sizemore:

office, you have some of those difficult employees that that

Gene Sizemore:

have well known and well documented relationships with

Gene Sizemore:

the unions. And yet you've had no union grievances. And they

Gene Sizemore:

asked me, you know, what, how did how is that possible. And to

Gene Sizemore:

me, it just never seemed like it was rocket science. I mean, my

Gene Sizemore:

role as a leader was to take care of my employees to take

Gene Sizemore:

care of the humans that were entrusted to me to accomplish

Gene Sizemore:

our mission. And the way that I avoided that kind of conflict

Gene Sizemore:

where they had to bring in a third party to resolve things

Gene Sizemore:

between us was I made sure that I took care of my employees

Gene Sizemore:

better than the Union could. And that came down to me getting to

Gene Sizemore:

know my employees know what their concerns were, know what

Gene Sizemore:

their needs were, and make sure that I was doing everything

Gene Sizemore:

within my sphere of influence, to address those needs, and make

Gene Sizemore:

sure that they were happy. And that was just my way of

Gene Sizemore:

identifying potential conflicts and issues that could lead to

Gene Sizemore:

conflict and making it my job to address them before I had to be

Gene Sizemore:

the manager that was then now dealing with conflict, because

Gene Sizemore:

that, to me, seemed counterproductive. By addressing

Gene Sizemore:

those issues and those problems early on, I achieved the double

Gene Sizemore:

result of a avoiding conflict and be creating a much happier

Gene Sizemore:

workforce that was a lot more productive and getting work

Gene Sizemore:

done. Probably one of my most favorite things about leadership

Gene Sizemore:

and about management as a whole. So I have a lot of thoughts on

Gene Sizemore:

this. I could drone on forever. I want I want to respect Erica's

Gene Sizemore:

time, because I know she has something to say. So I just

Gene Sizemore:

wanted to just say that, you know, I just think that there's

Gene Sizemore:

there's a lot to be said for recognizing the lifecycle of

Gene Sizemore:

conflict and understanding that there's a responsibility before

Gene Sizemore:

the conflict happens. And there's also a responsibility

Gene Sizemore:

after the conflict happens to avoid conflict from coming back.

Gene Sizemore:

And so I think that's an important aspect of conflict.

Gene Sizemore:

It's something that I've always been very cognizant of. And

Gene Sizemore:

Erica, I love I always love everything that you have to say,

Gene Sizemore:

and also your photos. So I just wanted to say I'm a moderator in

Gene Sizemore:

another room, I have to jump off. So I'm not going to flee

Gene Sizemore:

and not listen to what you have to say. I just didn't want to

Gene Sizemore:

seem disrespectful by by popping out after I said my piece.

Gene Sizemore:

Sorry. About that.

Erika:

Ah, that's awesome. Jean. Thank you. Thank you. And

Erika:

Nicole, do you want to respond to Jean before I start?

Nicole York:

No, just just, of course, as always, you know,

Nicole York:

thanks for the thoughts and that you're right, we do have to, we

Nicole York:

do have, particularly when it comes to our business a

Nicole York:

responsibility to be avoiding those conflicts before they

Nicole York:

happen, which is, of course, I think, to cast point about

Nicole York:

education and setting expectations, which is

Nicole York:

definitely something we're going to talk about this week. So

Nicole York:

definitely appreciate your thoughts. And Eric, I can't wait

Nicole York:

to hear from you.

Unknown:

Yeah, actually, it's very similar to what Jean said,

Unknown:

I have been listening the entire time thinking about my conflict

Unknown:

aversion, especially when it affects the perception of my

Unknown:

character. I mean, those are the things that more than anything

Unknown:

else keeps me awake at night. So I'm desperate to avoid conflict.

Unknown:

And like cat was saying, you know, it's 99.9% of the time

Unknown:

it's in my communication, which for better or worse, majority of

Unknown:

my communication is in written form, not only So, I can go back

Unknown:

and figure out what was said between me and the client, but

Unknown:

also, you know, so I, I know if I was in the right or if I was

Unknown:

in the wrong, but then also the willingness to fall on the sword

Unknown:

if I have to, or if if it's, if it is my issue, you know,

Unknown:

sometimes I will even before a client even realizes there's a

Unknown:

problem, because I want them to know I am trustworthy. I want

Unknown:

them to know that I am somebody not trying to swindle them and

Unknown:

So again, avoiding that conflict, which I have done

Unknown:

rather successfully. I mean, early on my, in my career, I

Unknown:

think I had some pretty big ones that caused me to change my

Unknown:

process and all of that to, to really, really focus on avoiding

Unknown:

that because I don't deal well when it actually comes to pass.

Nicole York:

I can definitely sympathize with you there, I

Nicole York:

prefer not to do it. I don't want to have to do it. And I

Nicole York:

think many of us can probably empathize as well. So this has

Nicole York:

been a really great conversation to give us a beginning framework

Nicole York:

for the rest of the week, as we talk about different aspects of

Nicole York:

managing confrontations, because these things are bound to

Nicole York:

happen. We are going to run across confrontations and our

Nicole York:

life at some point, whether they are political, or interpersonal,

Nicole York:

or they have to do with our customer service, or our

Nicole York:

presence online, something is going to pop up that somebody is

Nicole York:

not going to like and they are going to let us know about it.

Nicole York:

And we're going to really look at some of the tools that we can

Nicole York:

use this week that not only build a framework for dealing

Nicole York:

with those confrontations, but also help us think about how we

Nicole York:

approach them. And for me, that has been the biggest game

Nicole York:

changer in not only looking back at why my initial responses are,

Nicole York:

what they are like, what purpose do they serve? Why am I

Nicole York:

constantly wanting everybody to get along. And when I realized

Nicole York:

that, that was a trauma response, I am looking to make

Nicole York:

things safe for myself. I was able to deconstruct that a

Nicole York:

little bit and and recognize that it's a useful tool. But it

Nicole York:

needs to be used not just for my own personal safety, right, it

Nicole York:

needs to be used towards some end goal, which is where setting

Nicole York:

your intention comes from. So if this is from a business

Nicole York:

perspective, we're talking about setting an intention for how we

Nicole York:

deal with our clients and what we want those outcomes to be. If

Nicole York:

this is for an interpersonal issue, asking ourselves,

Nicole York:

ideally, if I could have this end in an ideal way, what is

Nicole York:

that ending? And then how do I approach this, with that ending

Nicole York:

in mind, and we're really going to dive into that this week. But

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what I would encourage everybody to do and I will see if I can

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find the link for the Facebook group. There is a man who I

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think a Pitta Mises, a fantastic way to approach and deal with

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these things. His name is Darrell Dawson, he is a

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musician. He is also a black man who has through friendship.

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Basically convinced several highly placed people within the

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KKK to give up their robes up to an including the Grand Wizard.

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Simply by recognizing that are these people wrong Absa flipping

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loosely? Are they humans who are imperfect and have made mistakes

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and have biases that they didn't always build for themselves.

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Yes. And by putting himself in a relationship with these men has

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changed who they are as people and the future of their lives.

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He has a TED Talk. It's really incredible. You can also watch

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interviews with him, where he talks about the fact that

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approaching these situations from a question of well, what is

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the ideal outcome, right? Well, the ideal outcome is these

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people stop being racist.

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And he would have every right to be furious to want to tear them

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down. But his approach is recognizing, if I go into this

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battle with a flame thrower, I'm just going to entrench them

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further in their beliefs. But if I walk into this, allowing them

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to see me as a human being and allowing them to recognize that

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I see them as a human being, pretty soon they're going to

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recognize that the differences between us are minuscule, and it

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becomes impossible to hate somebody we see ourselves in. So

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his story and his experiences are absolutely incredible. So I

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would encourage everybody to look that up. His name is Darryl

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Dawson. And I will see if I can find a link to share some of

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those in the Facebook group, but it might give you me a really

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great initial understanding to how managing conflict can

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actually end in a fantastic way for everybody. And it does not

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always have to end with one person feeling like they're

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walking away the winner and the other person feel like they're

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walking away the loser because all that really does is set us

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up for conflict again in the future. So just some things to

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think about as we end today, this is going to be a really

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intense week because we're asking ourselves to look at

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ourselves, and then to recognize the fact that those instincts

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that we have those the self protection, the the ego, the

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identity, all of those things will be reflected in other

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people, they will be struggling with those issues, too. They

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might not even be as cognizant of them as we are, which means

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we don't have to make somebody the bad guy in order to address

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their behavior. So all of that stuff coming up this week, guys,

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I hope you will be here with us sharing your experiences,

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learning along with us so that we all become better at managing

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conflict which not only makes our life better, but also makes

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our business better. So I'm excited to get in that with into

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that with you all. I hope you have an amazing day today. And I

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hope we will see you bright and early tomorrow morning at 7am

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Mountain Standard Time that is 6am for the West Coast 9am for

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the East Coast afternoon for our friends overseas, and that you

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go and make something amazing today. See all in the morning.

Matt Stagliano:

Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse

Matt Stagliano:

discussion moderated by all of us at the artist Forge. We hope

Matt Stagliano:

you found the information useful and that it helps you gain a

Matt Stagliano:

little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft. For more

Matt Stagliano:

episodes, please join us each weekday on clubhouse or visit

Matt Stagliano:

the artist forge.com and go make something incredible

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About the Podcast

Morning Walk with The Artist's Forge
How to Critique Art
Learn how mindset, creativity, and visual literacy will help you think like an artist so you can create work you love and build a career that matters; bridging the gap between technique and art.

About your host

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Nicole York