Episode 7

full
Published on:

14th Jan 2022

Finding Common Ground

Confrontation is a fact of life, but there are ways to deal with confrontation that allow us to work toward solutions as allies rather than enemies. It requires putting aside your ego, having empathy for the other party, and recognizing that both parties are far more alike than they are different. It requires a lot of internal work, but the end result is that two people are now looking for a solution that benefits both, rather than trying to prove they are right to get their own way.

Transcript
Matt Stagliano:

Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being

Matt Stagliano:

part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who

Matt Stagliano:

help each other think like an artist. By discussing creativity

Matt Stagliano:

as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone

Matt Stagliano:

has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need

Matt Stagliano:

some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What

Matt Stagliano:

you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily

Matt Stagliano:

discussions on the clubhouse app. If you like what you hear,

Matt Stagliano:

I encourage you to join our private Facebook group, or visit

Matt Stagliano:

us on the web at the artist forged calm. Now on to the show.

Nicole York:

I am so glad to have everybody joining us today

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on morning walk and photo talk with the artist Forge. As you

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know if you've been here, this week, we've been discussing

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confrontations and how we deal with them. And specific

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techniques we can use to walk us through confrontations get us to

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a desired end result. And hopefully, mean the

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confrontation becomes valuable. And not just some difficult

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thing we have to make it through often resulting in both parties

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having resentment or whatever other nasty things can come up

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from having to be in a place of conflict with someone. And of

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course, particularly as artists, we're thinking often about our

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relationship with our clients, our online presence, all that

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stuff. But these principles can go with you all the way through

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the spectrum of your life, from personal relationships, to, to

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business relationships, and all those other good things. So

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really important stuff to look at and dive into. We talked

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yesterday about some practical techniques that we can use to

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slow ourselves down, really consider how we want a conflict

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to end to make sure that we have set our intentions. And we know

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about our own biases, and you know, are just able to kind of

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account for the fact that we're not perfect, neither is the

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other person, some of what we have to say is probably right,

Nicole York:

some of what they have to say is probably right. And we both are

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wrong somewhere. So just to give ourselves a good foundation to

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get started. Which leads us into what we're going to talk about

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today, which I think is one of the most helpful ways that we

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can approach conflict. And that is Abraham Lincoln's adage, do

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not destroy my enemy when I make him my friend. And the idea

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behind this is how do we find common ground with a person who

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is approaching us with a conflict. And this can be seen

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really beautifully. When we have to deal with clients, it can

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feel like they are an enemy coming into our territory, to

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attack and hurt our our income, our way of life or our ego,

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sometimes even when people will come and they're just not

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impressed with the photos you took of them. That can be a real

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strike against your ego. So there's a lot of difficulty in

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putting that aside and trying to figure out okay, rather than

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approaching this issue with me as the defender and you as the

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aggressor, how can we position ourselves so that it's not you

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against me, it's us against the problem, right. And so that

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requires one of the things we've already talked about, which is

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setting aside your ego a little bit, not feeling like you must

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defend yourself at all costs. But it also requires that

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empathy that Matt talked about yesterday, being willing to step

Nicole York:

into someone's shoes to imagine what it must feel like to be in

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their position. And to recognize that the two of you are not

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enemies, as much as it can be difficult to allow somebody to

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come into your space like that. That person is not your enemy,

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the problem is the enemy. And we've got to be willing to

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recognize that and figure out ways to come together. So that's

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going to be the topic of today's conversation, how we find common

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ground. And I'd like to begin specifically by thinking about

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this from a client centric point of view. But I also think it

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would be really valuable for us to consider that from a broader

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perspective. Also, because, as we've talked about, during this

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entire conversation, our ability to move forward successfully

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with any group of people, whether that is your local

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camera club, the political region that you're in all of

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that kind of stuff us as the country really depends on

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recognizing the innate humanity of the other people and not

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making value judgments about who they are morally. When we try to

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solve problems recognizing two heads is better than one and

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that both of us coming from an opposite point of view. means

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that we can understand an issue in greater detail and depth.

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It's almost like you've ever heard the story of the blind men

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and the elephant. The idea is that three blind men are walked

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up to an elephant and told to touch the part of the elephant

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that they're standing next to, and then explain what the

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elephant is. And one blind man is near the end, and he holds

Nicole York:

the elephant tail, and he says, The elephant is a rope. And then

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another blind man is next to the side of the elephant, and he

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touches the elephant side, and he says, an elephant is clearly

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a wall. And then the one in the front touches the elephant's

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nose. And he says the elephant is clearly a hose. So all of

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these three had accurate information about the part of

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the elephant they were exposed to. But it's not until you bring

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all of them together. Even when they're, they're on opposite

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sides. It's not until you bring all of them together, that you

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actually get a better picture of the entire issue. And the same

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is true for us. Whether it's clients we're dealing with, or

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people of different political opinions, everybody gets a

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chance to look at the issue from an opposite side. And the better

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you can understand it, even if the result is not that you

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change your mind, the more information you get, the more

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likely we are to be able to approach a problem and solve it

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and have a great outcome. So my question to everyone today,

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folks in the audience be thinking about this one, because

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we definitely want to bring you up a little bit later, is how

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can we go from being enemies in a conflict, to bringing both of

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us together for common ground, where we can approach a problem

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together? And obviously, I want to start with my mods.

Nicole York:

What do you guys think? How do we find common ground with

Nicole York:

people who are coming at us with a problem? Let's think about it

Nicole York:

from a client perspective first.

Matt Stagliano:

Boy, I think, you know, man, okay. Big, big

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question, right. And it's all very situational. There's a lot

Matt Stagliano:

of variables. But if we try to look for, for commonalities in

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how do we approach something like this, I think the first

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most important thing is to shut up and listen, just listen,

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understand that you're not going to get anywhere in finding

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common ground, if you're already in your head, waiting to speak,

Matt Stagliano:

waiting to undermine their argument, thinking about ways

Matt Stagliano:

around what they're saying, the important thing really is as

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simple as listening. Because oftentimes, when you do take

Matt Stagliano:

that few beats, to listen to what they're saying, let them

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get it all out, that you start to hear other things besides

Matt Stagliano:

what that original point might be. Right? So for me, it's

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always taking time before responding or acting just, you

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know, if you're confronted, your first reaction is almost always

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going to be some level of defense, which could cause

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additional problems and for things to spin sideways, but

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taking time to truly listen and think about what was said. So

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that you can respond to it calmly, is really just the

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number one rule in my book is to say, Okay, well, what was just

Matt Stagliano:

said, and I've mentioned this on Monday as well, which was

Matt Stagliano:

alright, is this what you said? Is this what you meant? Right?

Matt Stagliano:

Just making sure that whatever is coming your way, is very

Matt Stagliano:

clear, so that you can choose how to move forward. Second to

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that is, is it something you agree with? Is it something that

Matt Stagliano:

you disagree with? Is it factual? Is it not factual? Is

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it a point of view in an opinion? Or is it fact? And I

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think, by just taking a few beats to think about those

Matt Stagliano:

things before you respond, that sets a really calm basis for

Matt Stagliano:

whatever comes next. Sounds extraordinarily simple, but it

Matt Stagliano:

is very powerful. How about we start there, Nicole?

Nicole York:

I think that's a fantastic place to start and

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really speaks to, you know, when we talked about setting an

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intention, you can't do that if all you're doing is waiting to

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speak, right? Like if you're not listening, if you're just

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feeling riled up and you feel like you have to say, the thing

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that's on your mind, that doesn't give you a chance to set

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an intention at all. And if you can approach something calmly, I

Nicole York:

think you're much more likely to be able to talk somebody into

Nicole York:

coming to the middle, or finding a place where both of you can

Nicole York:

stand on Common Ground. So yeah, I absolutely I agree 100%. And

Nicole York:

then I think the question becomes after that, once you

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have listened and maintained your empathy, and tried to put

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aside your ego a little bit and weigh and judge what the other

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person is saying, what comes next? Like? How do we then say,

Nicole York:

Well, where can we meet? And I know, Becca actually has a

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really fantastic response for when somebody comes to you with

Nicole York:

a problem. And Becca, maybe you can share that. Something about

Nicole York:

saying thank you.

Bekka Bjorke:

Hold on, had to wake up my last remaining brain

Bekka Bjorke:

cell. Yeah, yeah, replacing sorry, with thank you is, like a

Bekka Bjorke:

giant, magical sword to empower whoever you're talking to. That

Bekka Bjorke:

was a weird analogy. I love it. What is it, I don't want to call

Bekka Bjorke:

it a weapon, because we're trying to avoid and resolve

Bekka Bjorke:

conflict here. But um, you know, it's a tool in your belt. And

Bekka Bjorke:

it's so powerful, because it switches the power dynamic kind

Bekka Bjorke:

of in it helps to empower whoever you're speaking to, and

Bekka Bjorke:

let them again, as I've repeated numerous times, you know, let

Bekka Bjorke:

them know that you care about their feelings, and you're

Bekka Bjorke:

grateful for their time and you know, as a customer for their

Bekka Bjorke:

business. So yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Nicole York:

Yeah, and I love that so much for a lot of

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reasons. But one of them is because if you think about the

Nicole York:

power dynamics at play, when a client comes to you, with

Nicole York:

something that they're unhappy with, they are at a pretty great

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power imbalance there, because you are the one who gets to

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decide whether or not you solve their problem. And of course,

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there's, there's paths they can take if if you do not, but for

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most of us are not willing to go to small claims court and all of

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the trouble that it's going to take to get something from a

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small business person we've worked with, if we disagree

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about the way we've been treated, or we think for some

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reason, we haven't gotten what we were owed, right, like

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that's, that just makes the problem worse. So the power

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imbalance is weighted heavily in our favor. And when somebody

Nicole York:

comes to us, they're recognize that make no mistake, we

Nicole York:

internally recognize the fact that we are showing up to this

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situation on the low side of the slope. So when we as a business

Nicole York:

owner in the person of power, don't look at that individual as

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if they're attacking us uphill, but we say, hey, I really

Nicole York:

appreciate you coming to me with this. Thank you for being

Nicole York:

willing to share your thoughts. I know it's not easy. And of

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course, I never would want you to feel this way. Right? that

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completely changes it. Now, like Becca said, You've in the way

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you've kind of given them a magical sword, you said, Look,

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I'm eating out the power balance here. So that this doesn't have

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to be me versus you. I want to give you the power to advocate

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for yourself in this situation. And I mean, man, what a what a

Nicole York:

number one, think about what a D escalator that is, because now,

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the reason for half of the energy that you've built up is

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gone, you don't have to charge up that hill anymore, you're

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standing on equal ground, that's a really big deal. And two, it

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makes it very clear that we as business owners are truly

Nicole York:

invested in interested in the people that we're working with,

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and we care about them enough to say, I'm not going to Lord, my

Nicole York:

ability to say no over you, I want this to work out for us.

Nicole York:

And for you. Let's figure this out together. It's a really big

Nicole York:

change in the playing field. So I love that approach. So so so

Nicole York:

much. Anything else y'all that we can kind of think of and how

Nicole York:

we can find a middle ground a common ground, when we are in a

Nicole York:

conflict or confrontation with a potential client or a past

Nicole York:

client?

Cat Ford-Coates:

By asking. Like that's, that's really like,

Cat Ford-Coates:

number one is thank you. I appreciate you. I want to make

Cat Ford-Coates:

this right. And number two is where is the disconnect? Like,

Cat Ford-Coates:

what is this client upset about? Are they upset because they

Cat Ford-Coates:

thought they were getting digital images? And they got

Cat Ford-Coates:

digital images that were sized to the size purchase? I've had

Cat Ford-Coates:

that conversation several times. And, okay, that means again, I'm

Cat Ford-Coates:

going to take 100% responsibility because obviously

Cat Ford-Coates:

I did not educate them properly. Right. And so it's how do we

Cat Ford-Coates:

make this right? You understand the disconnect, you thank them,

Cat Ford-Coates:

you've given them the power. So what is what Is the reason

Cat Ford-Coates:

they're upset because there might be some times where I'm

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, You know what? All of this was explained to you, you

Cat Ford-Coates:

repeated it back to me you signed a contract. Here is where

Cat Ford-Coates:

XYZ is. And then can I deliver more to make you happy? Or am I

Cat Ford-Coates:

issuing a refund? Or was somebody mean to them? Right?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Maybe it's not a money thing. Maybe the hair makeup artist

Cat Ford-Coates:

just sat there and talked shit about something the entire time

Cat Ford-Coates:

and totally ruined their experience. Right? So they spent

Cat Ford-Coates:

the rest of their photoshoot thinking God, like, what a

Cat Ford-Coates:

negative bitch like, Oh, this sucks. You know, like, what's

Cat Ford-Coates:

the disconnect? Where did you or your team mess up? And how can

Cat Ford-Coates:

you make that right for them? And how they respond to that

Cat Ford-Coates:

will determine how you move forward.

Nicole York:

I think that's so great. And so when we ask, you

Nicole York:

know, how do I make this right, what happened? And how do we

Nicole York:

make this right? For you? I know besom has talked about non

Nicole York:

negotiables before things that he knows in advance, or lines

Nicole York:

that he's not willing to cross? Do you have any of those FOR

Nicole York:

YOUR BUSINESS CAT? Or is it completely situational? Based on

Nicole York:

what has happened with the client?

Cat Ford-Coates:

I mean, I think everything has to be to some

Cat Ford-Coates:

extent, situational, right? Like I would have to understand more

Cat Ford-Coates:

about what those non negotiables might be, you know, if I've

Cat Ford-Coates:

already delivered the product and the imagery to a client, and

Cat Ford-Coates:

then they turn up and they're like, God, you know, I'm feeling

Cat Ford-Coates:

really bad. Like I had a mom come to me, after the fact, she

Cat Ford-Coates:

was picking up her order. So they paid for everything. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

she came back in to pick everything up without her

Cat Ford-Coates:

daughter, and sat down and was like, I just wanted to let you

Cat Ford-Coates:

know, this was far too expensive. And I went, I'm

Cat Ford-Coates:

sorry. i What happened? And she was like, Well, every other

Cat Ford-Coates:

photographer in town is cheaper. And I really feel like you took

Cat Ford-Coates:

advantage of us. And I said, I'm really sorry. Like I don't

Cat Ford-Coates:

understand where this fell sideways. And really what

Cat Ford-Coates:

happened was she got her Digital's and was showing them

Cat Ford-Coates:

around to other people. And everybody she was talking to was

Cat Ford-Coates:

like God, you got ripped off. Crap, I forgot my mask. Oh, no,

Cat Ford-Coates:

forgetting something. But it was like, totally out of left field

Cat Ford-Coates:

for me. And I wasn't in like that non negotiable for me was

Cat Ford-Coates:

this orders already been placed? Who knew the prices from start,

Cat Ford-Coates:

like and now other people are in your ear telling you, you paid

Cat Ford-Coates:

too much. So I'm not giving her a refund. Right? If you go

Cat Ford-Coates:

through the entire process, and are happy and excited when

Cat Ford-Coates:

everything's done, and then come to me after the fact, like, if

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, I'm not gonna give you a refund, but I might give you a

Cat Ford-Coates:

gift voucher for $1 amount toward another session. Just

Cat Ford-Coates:

say, You know what, Mom? Like? I'm really sorry, you feel that

Cat Ford-Coates:

way? I feel like it was a really great experience for your

Cat Ford-Coates:

daughter. You've even said, you know, to me, like her confidence

Cat Ford-Coates:

went through the roof. Law. She's been on cloud nine for

Cat Ford-Coates:

weeks. Why don't we give you this experience? Right, here's

Cat Ford-Coates:

$1,000 toward a session with me. Right, because then I'm taking

Cat Ford-Coates:

some of that. The ownership of that, but I'm not coming down on

Cat Ford-Coates:

my prices. Mm hmm. Right. And I'm offering to give her that

Cat Ford-Coates:

same experience. But if it's a confrontation, maybe in the

Cat Ford-Coates:

sales room, like, Oh, I didn't understand that this would be

Cat Ford-Coates:

this much, then I know that I didn't handle the education

Cat Ford-Coates:

properly. Right. Right.

Nicole York:

Yeah, I think, um, I think it's really valuable for

Nicole York:

us to, to think about, I mean, we have an entire situation

Nicole York:

there to consider when we're thinking about our clients, from

Nicole York:

their past experience with us, what our customer journey looks

Nicole York:

like that they get to go through. And certainly, that

Nicole York:

allows us to consider our own culpability when we look back at

Nicole York:

their experience and what we may have done. And also, you know,

Nicole York:

when besar mentions his non negotiables one of the things

Nicole York:

that he says that he has set up for his businesses, if somebody

Nicole York:

takes advantage of me that's a non negotiable, like this is an

Nicole York:

area we don't negotiate in. Because it's just not an

Nicole York:

acceptable way to have a relationship as far as he's

Nicole York:

concerned. And so, you know, and obviously, whether or not you

Nicole York:

believe somebody is taking advantage of you is gonna be

Nicole York:

completely dependent upon the situation. But that for him is

Nicole York:

one thing he knows in advance, he's not going to budge on if

Nicole York:

his conclusion is that it has become a situation for them to

Nicole York:

be able to take advantage of you. And that can be really

Nicole York:

difficult to judge. And of course, that's why it's an

Nicole York:

individual thing. And it's very circumstantial, but it's

Nicole York:

definitely important to think about, where when we want to

Nicole York:

meet somebody in the middle, are there lines, we're not willing

Nicole York:

to cross? And how far are we willing to go. And I really

Nicole York:

appreciate what wind said yesterday, when he said, you

Nicole York:

know, very simply, if a client is unhappy, then I say to them,

Nicole York:

my job is to make you happy. So what do I need to do to make you

Nicole York:

feel thrilled and satisfied, etc, about with the service, the

Nicole York:

products, whatever you've gotten from me? And, of course, there

Nicole York:

are different ways we can all word that to suit our business.

Nicole York:

But I think it's definitely a valuable thing to think about.

Nicole York:

And then to ask that question, because one of the things he

Nicole York:

mentioned is most of the time, what they say, is far less than

Nicole York:

what we're willing to do. And that's a question we've got to

Nicole York:

ask ourselves as well. How far are we willing to go? Are there

Nicole York:

lines we're not willing to cross when it comes to customer

Nicole York:

satisfaction. And I know, we've probably all experienced that,

Nicole York:

from the opposite point of view, when we've gone to maybe a

Nicole York:

restaurant or a boutique or somewhere, and the service or

Nicole York:

the food, the product just really wasn't what we expected.

Nicole York:

And in those cases, there are times when the restaurant will

Nicole York:

say, sorry, too bad for you. And other times, when they'll be

Nicole York:

like, Hey, here's a free dinner on us or we'd like to give you a

Nicole York:

refund or whatever. The circumstances are always

Nicole York:

different. We have to come to those conclusions ourselves. So

Nicole York:

it can really be a complicated ball of string to try and wind

Nicole York:

our way through.

Nicole York:

I had an experience. And I've mentioned this before, so you'll

Nicole York:

have to forgive me if you've heard this one. But I've only

Nicole York:

had a couple of times where clients were not happy with the

Nicole York:

images that they received from me. One was a woman who came in

Nicole York:

for a boudoir shoot, we talked about how she wanted everything

Nicole York:

to go, her inspiration for the shoot what she wanted to look

Nicole York:

like and feel like and she mentioned to me, Sophia Loren,

Nicole York:

and for anybody who is familiar with the actress, since hallion

Nicole York:

woman, she's very sultry, very beautiful. Very much. I mean,

Nicole York:

sultry is like the perfect word to describe her I think, and

Nicole York:

also fiery, you know, kind of powerful woman. And so, when we

Nicole York:

did her boudoir shoot, that was what I aimed for with the shoot

Nicole York:

itself with coaching her through expressions and posing with

Nicole York:

wardrobe, all of that stuff. And then when she came to her

Nicole York:

session, it was a gift to her boyfriend. So they were both

Nicole York:

there. He absolutely loved everything. She was not very

Nicole York:

happy. She felt like she didn't recognize herself in the images.

Nicole York:

And of course, I was left a little bit speechless because I

Nicole York:

really felt like I had, I had hit the markers that we were

Nicole York:

going for. And when I asked her what was it about the images

Nicole York:

that she felt like, didn't look familiar to her. She said, I

Nicole York:

don't recognize myself when I'm not smiling. Okay, so that is

Nicole York:

certainly not, you know, a trademark for a feeler in and so

Nicole York:

I was a little bit blown away, but rather than be upset with

Nicole York:

her, and of course, I offered, you know, I was like I'm so

Nicole York:

sorry, because I recognized what I could have done in the

Nicole York:

situation was be more specific with her and say, Okay, what is

Nicole York:

it about Sophia Ren that you want to apply to this shoot? She

Nicole York:

might have said something like the makeup or the styling the

Nicole York:

way she always has a kind of a wasp waist and this hourglass

Nicole York:

figure or who knows, you know, she might have said anything,

Nicole York:

but certainly, it wouldn't have been. She's always making sultry

Nicole York:

expressions, because that didn't apply to how she saw herself,

Nicole York:

which is not something I would have known if I hadn't asked

Nicole York:

which meant for me it was a lesson in okay in the future. I

Nicole York:

need to be more specific when people bring me inspiration

Nicole York:

about finding what it is in this that they think applies to what

Nicole York:

they want. And so I was quick to say well, I would love to do

Nicole York:

another shoot with you Let's do this, again so that we can

Nicole York:

capture those expressions you feel like represent who you are.

Nicole York:

But interestingly enough, she didn't want to, she didn't want

Nicole York:

a refund, she thought the experience was fantastic. And

Nicole York:

she recognized that the photos were beautiful, she just didn't

Nicole York:

like them. But her boyfriend did. So we walked away from that

Nicole York:

experience without actually changing anything, which is,

Nicole York:

which was kind of wild. But, you know, in order for us to find

Nicole York:

common ground there, I really had to figure out what it was

Nicole York:

that she was unhappy with, and recognize my culpability in the

Nicole York:

experience. So that she felt like I heard what she was

Nicole York:

saying, because I imagine if I had approached that situation,

Nicole York:

defensively and said, these are beautiful, you look amazing. I

Nicole York:

don't know what you're talking about. Your boyfriend loves

Nicole York:

them. Why are you complaining? You know, if I had approached it

Nicole York:

from that place? I really doubt whether she would have been

Nicole York:

like, No, you know what, I'm happy, I paid you this money, he

Nicole York:

loves them, you know, et cetera, et cetera, let's I'm okay with

Nicole York:

letting things be what they are, I really doubt whether or not

Nicole York:

that would have been the case. Because then she would have

Nicole York:

become defensive. And the whole thing could have devolved into a

Nicole York:

great big mess. So that's just one example of a potential

Nicole York:

outcome that we could have. If we take the time to make sure we

Nicole York:

find that common ground and, and bring the person and ourselves

Nicole York:

to a middle place, instead of attacking from opposite sides.

Nicole York:

So I know that we are getting close, we are kind of at our

Nicole York:

halfway point. I want to make sure mods. Do you guys have

Nicole York:

anything else that you want to share? In regards to? How do we

Nicole York:

find common ground? Before we open it up and ask the audience

Nicole York:

to come and share their thoughts?

Bekka Bjorke:

I have a question kind of related to that story.

Bekka Bjorke:

Yeah. So I feel like in most, you know, customer client facing

Bekka Bjorke:

conversations, we can generally walk in with, you know, some

Bekka Bjorke:

sort of idea for how we could potentially solve this problem,

Bekka Bjorke:

you know, we probably have an idea of what their complaints

Bekka Bjorke:

may be. And again, leaning into those kind of non negotiable

Bekka Bjorke:

ideas where we may be willing to do XYZ, whatever, depending on

Bekka Bjorke:

what their issue is, however, like in this situation with the

Bekka Bjorke:

client and wanting to look like the field, right, and then not

Bekka Bjorke:

liking the photos. Have you guys ever had an experience with a

Bekka Bjorke:

client who seemed to just want to be mad, just to be mad? And

Bekka Bjorke:

how do you deal with that? Because I'm thinking back on a

Bekka Bjorke:

couple times, I've had bad client conversations, and I can

Bekka Bjorke:

think of to where that was the case where solutions were

Bekka Bjorke:

presented, and they did not want to reach a solution. They just

Bekka Bjorke:

wanted to be really pissed off. I'm curious if anyone else has

Bekka Bjorke:

experienced that

Nicole York:

did for any of those clients? Did you ever

Nicole York:

actually reach any solution? Or did they just walk away leaving

Nicole York:

things as they were a bit pissed off?

Bekka Bjorke:

Yep. Yep. Hmm. Yeah, I can explain the two of

Bekka Bjorke:

them. And they were completely like unrelated. One of them

Bekka Bjorke:

actually wasn't a client. It was a makeup artist that I was doing

Bekka Bjorke:

a collaborative shoot with. And this was before I used

Bekka Bjorke:

contracts, even for test shoots or trade shoots or anything. And

Bekka Bjorke:

I said, this is just a collaborative Shoot, we're

Bekka Bjorke:

getting together whatever. She shows up, she does the makeup.

Bekka Bjorke:

It's great. I asked her if there's anything she needs from

Bekka Bjorke:

me before we head to the shoot location, she's like, nope, by

Bekka Bjorke:

and leaves, and deliver the photos like couple weeks later,

Bekka Bjorke:

everything's fine. And then she posts the photos on her

Bekka Bjorke:

Instagram, calling me out for not paying her day rate. And

Bekka Bjorke:

yeah, publicly. And the model contacted me I didn't even see

Bekka Bjorke:

this the model contacted and was like, Hey, I don't want to be

Bekka Bjorke:

associated with this drama. Like please handle this and so I

Bekka Bjorke:

reached out and maybe I'm like, Hey, I I realized I was unclear

Bekka Bjorke:

here. You know, I'm happy to pay your way please let me know what

Bekka Bjorke:

that is. And she didn't want to be paid she just wanted to talk

Bekka Bjorke:

shit on the internet and was telling people like she knew

Bekka Bjorke:

where I lived because we didn't make up at my house I was just

Bekka Bjorke:

totally utterly bizarre something like that. offered to

Bekka Bjorke:

pay Wow awkward to fix the problem and yeah, but that's

Bekka Bjorke:

like sitting in my trauma bank and my memory but I don't know

Bekka Bjorke:

if anyone else has had weird experiences where someone just

Bekka Bjorke:

really wanted to take out their anger on you

Nicole York:

not i That's That's definitely wild. Many of you

Nicole York:

other mods, you guys have had those experiences you know?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Oh, sorry, Matt.

Matt Stagliano:

No, all I was gonna say is I think this group

Matt Stagliano:

very well knows my views on mental health. But sometimes

Matt Stagliano:

crazy is just going to crazy. And that's really what it comes

Matt Stagliano:

down to. I'm sorry, had that happened. Becca

Bekka Bjorke:

It was weird. It was weird. And it was just, you

Bekka Bjorke:

know, one off thing. I can think of one other person at the

Bekka Bjorke:

nightclub, and they also didn't want to reach a solution. But

Bekka Bjorke:

um, yeah, just I'm curious how often that comes up. Because I

Bekka Bjorke:

feel like otherwise we can generally go in with a plan and

Bekka Bjorke:

solve most problems.

Nicole York:

Yeah, I wonder if there are times when somebody is

Nicole York:

just unhappy, we are a convenient target for venting

Nicole York:

their anger. And if we just have to step away and allow them

Nicole York:

space to be pissed off. And then I mean, of course, we're still

Nicole York:

going to try to offer, you know, solutions. And if they take

Nicole York:

none, I mean, I feel really comfortable walking away at that

Nicole York:

point is particularly if I've not tried to defend myself or be

Nicole York:

or have any kind of reprisal in that situation. Just let

Nicole York:

somebody be mad and pissed off, of course, granted that they

Nicole York:

don't try to attack me or anything. But yeah, I think

Nicole York:

that's right. I mean, I think sometimes, and those situations,

Nicole York:

I don't really know that there is much you can do, except just

Nicole York:

allow them to vent and go about their business. Of course, if

Nicole York:

anybody in the audience has experienced anything like this,

Nicole York:

and it turned out well, I would love to hear from you.

Cat Ford-Coates:

I think it's important to understand to like,

Cat Ford-Coates:

if somebody is coming after you publicly online and just

Cat Ford-Coates:

slandering the shit out of you out of left field, and you have

Cat Ford-Coates:

called to redress, like the education component and the

Cat Ford-Coates:

contract that you agreed on, or at least the terms that you

Cat Ford-Coates:

agreed on, and then like people something like this, I would

Cat Ford-Coates:

very succinctly go right straight to the post that you

Cat Ford-Coates:

know, where she is running around, and just list out like,

Cat Ford-Coates:

hey, when we booked this session, it was on colab. But if

Cat Ford-Coates:

you want it to be paid for that, I reached out to make that right

Cat Ford-Coates:

with you, you totally blew me off. And hopefully, that's not

Cat Ford-Coates:

what you wanted. And instead, you just came to Instagram to

Cat Ford-Coates:

run your mouth. I won't be using you again, as let alone for any

Cat Ford-Coates:

paid work. Thank you.

Bekka Bjorke:

That was actually about my solution there. But

Bekka Bjorke:

yeah, interesting to think that sometimes there just isn't ever

Bekka Bjorke:

a real resolution.

Unknown:

But I'm a big believer in like, honoring your business.

Unknown:

Yeah. And I know a lot of people would probably be like, You know

Unknown:

what, cut crazy loose and don't even engage. And that's totally

Unknown:

a way that you can do that. Because then you're honoring

Unknown:

your mental health as well. But I also like, don't take on me.

Bekka Bjorke:

Anything, that honoring your business, that's

Bekka Bjorke:

great.

Matt Stagliano:

Yeah, and I think I think cats amazing at

Matt Stagliano:

this. In standing her ground right now, I'm not trying to

Matt Stagliano:

talk about you in the third person kept, but I know that

Matt Stagliano:

you're in an airport right now. But, you know, the, the point

Matt Stagliano:

being, I think, at the beginning of any of these confrontations,

Matt Stagliano:

having a sense of self, and like besom always goes on about

Matt Stagliano:

knowing your non negotiables. Knowing where you stand, knowing

Matt Stagliano:

what you're going to be flexible on. And not before you ever get

Matt Stagliano:

into one of these situations. I know, I'm never going to give a

Matt Stagliano:

100% refund without exhausting all my options to make it right.

Matt Stagliano:

I know that if I did my job, right, then there might be

Matt Stagliano:

something else that is not reflective of me that is going

Matt Stagliano:

on, right? They're just going to be mad about something else

Matt Stagliano:

that's happening in their life. Which is why at the beginning of

Matt Stagliano:

these conversations, I really tried to root out, you know,

Matt Stagliano:

play that y game that we've talked about so many times, how

Matt Stagliano:

many levels, can you go down? I feel this way? Well, why do you

Matt Stagliano:

feel this way? Well, because you didn't give me service? Well,

Matt Stagliano:

why do you feel like I didn't give you service, and really get

Matt Stagliano:

to the heart of the matter. Because at that point, it's

Matt Stagliano:

going down that cognitive hierarchy pyramid, again, where

Matt Stagliano:

we start at the, you know, kind of like that top level behavior,

Matt Stagliano:

which is that surface thing that that is the what they believe is

Matt Stagliano:

the issue. But as you dig further and further down, you

Matt Stagliano:

get to the real root of the matter. And it's at that point,

Matt Stagliano:

you can start building a solution. So I think, you know,

Matt Stagliano:

when you do get into one of those situations, it's kind of a

Matt Stagliano:

crapshoot if it's going to get resolved, because they might

Matt Stagliano:

just be stubborn, and will never give you the information that

Matt Stagliano:

you need to come to a proper resolution. At which point you

Matt Stagliano:

need to have that sense of self to say, You know what, this this

Matt Stagliano:

isn't going to go any better than it is right now. So here's

Matt Stagliano:

my plan of action. But you know, like we all try to do to honor

Matt Stagliano:

the business is do what we can for our clients, but at the same

Matt Stagliano:

time on that honoring the business you have to Stand your

Matt Stagliano:

ground, if you know exactly what you're willing or not willing to

Matt Stagliano:

bend on.

Cat Ford-Coates:

1,000%

Nicole York:

turn it into a song, it always makes it better.

Nicole York:

Yeah, I think it's so important for us to make sure we do that

Nicole York:

work beforehand, and at least have a framework for ourselves

Nicole York:

to work off of, like understanding that for you that

Nicole York:

a full refund is a last ditch effort to make someone happy

Nicole York:

after everything has gone before. And also, I'm sure after

Nicole York:

you have decided whether or not the fault, or any of the fault

Nicole York:

really lies on your shoulders, and all of us have to make sure

Nicole York:

we make those decisions for ourselves. And that's that part

Nicole York:

of setting intentions that we talked about before. And then

Nicole York:

once we get to a place where now the confrontation is actually

Nicole York:

happening, we know the framework that we're working within, we've

Nicole York:

we've put ourselves in a place of empathy and set our ego

Nicole York:

aside. We're listening to our client, we make sure that they

Nicole York:

understand that we value their feedback, we want to make them

Nicole York:

happy, we've heard from them, really heard them out without

Nicole York:

listening for only the purpose of being able to respond. And

Nicole York:

then where do we go from here? So we've listened. And now we

Nicole York:

need to bring them to some kind of middle ground. What do we do?

Nicole York:

How do we how do we approach that? What do we say? Are there

Nicole York:

steps that we take? Like, how do we look at this practically, and

Nicole York:

friends in the audience? If you've experienced this and you

Nicole York:

have any thoughts, please raise your hand. We'd love to bring

Nicole York:

you up and hear how you approach these things.

Matt Stagliano:

Hey, Nicole, I do want to tell you a story

Matt Stagliano:

about the most insane confrontation that I've ever had

Matt Stagliano:

in my studio. Give Yeah, so no, the T sir. It was literally the

Matt Stagliano:

week that I opened my studio. This is about three years ago is

Matt Stagliano:

the end of 2017, beginning of 2018. there abouts. And I got a

Matt Stagliano:

job right, I was coming out of the commercial world and doing

Matt Stagliano:

retail and there was a gentleman in town, younger guy who had a

Matt Stagliano:

side business selling Amazon wigs like really cheap kind of

Matt Stagliano:

costume wigs. And he came in and said, You know, I want to

Matt Stagliano:

refresh the pictures on my website. I want white background

Matt Stagliano:

stuff. We just need pictures of all of these wigs and I said,

Matt Stagliano:

Okay, no problem. And I started to price things out. And, you

Matt Stagliano:

know, I was trying to get my feet under me for what I was

Matt Stagliano:

doing locally, he was the brother of someone that's very

Matt Stagliano:

prominent in town, I was trying to do all the things to say,

Matt Stagliano:

hey, this could be a great job for me. Well, he comes in with

Matt Stagliano:

40 of these really cheap nylon wigs where everything is static

Matt Stagliano:

electricity. So as we start shooting, the flyaways are just

Matt Stagliano:

insanity. And I'm using hairspray and I'm pushing things

Matt Stagliano:

down. And I'm saying at some point, it's going to take us all

Matt Stagliano:

day to shoot these wigs, I said what we'll do is we'll go

Matt Stagliano:

through the wigs quickly, we'll spray everything down to the

Matt Stagliano:

best of our ability. And then I can remove some things in post.

Matt Stagliano:

Great. I go home, we shoot all day, he was originally

Matt Stagliano:

contracted for an hour, we shot for four and a half hours. This

Matt Stagliano:

was a $250 job, because I was trying to do something good new

Matt Stagliano:

client get good word of mouth, right, all that stuff. So take

Matt Stagliano:

all these images go home that night, I start retouching them.

Matt Stagliano:

And I realize after six hours of retouching flyaways that I need

Matt Stagliano:

to charge him a little bit more money. So I get everything done.

Matt Stagliano:

I send in the images that night with the invoice for the $250

Matt Stagliano:

plus an extra $40 for the additional six hours of

Matt Stagliano:

retouching. Don't yell at me for the pricing. Just go with the

Matt Stagliano:

story. So I deliver everything to him. Go to bed, wake up the

Matt Stagliano:

next morning start driving into the studio where he starts

Matt Stagliano:

texting me, where are you we need to talk. I said I'm

Matt Stagliano:

driving. I'll be in the studio in a few moments. We go into the

Matt Stagliano:

studio, he pulls up literally screeching his rubber into my

Matt Stagliano:

parking lot, runs in starts slamming on my desk, give me all

Matt Stagliano:

of these images. I'm not paying a cent. You owe me this. You

Matt Stagliano:

said you could do this. You didn't do that. All of these

Matt Stagliano:

things physically confronting me starting to walk around my desk

Matt Stagliano:

wanting to get close to me. I don't get intimidated that

Matt Stagliano:

easily and really just maintained a calm composure and

Matt Stagliano:

said alright, slow down. What is it that your issue is and we

Matt Stagliano:

talked it through and he wasn't hearing anything to make an

Matt Stagliano:

extraordinarily Long story short,

Matt Stagliano:

I basically told him to leave immediately he wasn't getting

Matt Stagliano:

anything. And that he can just keep those pictures, they are

Matt Stagliano:

what they are, I'm not charging him, he will never set foot in

Matt Stagliano:

the studio again, I will never accept anything from him again.

Matt Stagliano:

And if anything gets put out publicly, I have not only

Matt Stagliano:

witnesses in the other part of the studio, but I have

Matt Stagliano:

everything recorded. So he, I didn't have everything recorded.

Matt Stagliano:

But you know, you never know. So with that, he left the studio.

Matt Stagliano:

And his brother, his sister, who is the prominent person in town,

Matt Stagliano:

came to me and asked what was going on? And I explained

Matt Stagliano:

everything to her. And she just kind of left going, huh, okay.

Matt Stagliano:

At that point, I realized a couple of things. One, contracts

Matt Stagliano:

are everything, everything spelled out in contracts to,

Matt Stagliano:

don't negotiate. If someone comes to you refer to your

Matt Stagliano:

contract. Third, choose your projects carefully stand up for

Matt Stagliano:

yourself. And at this point, I've never treated a job exactly

Matt Stagliano:

the same since that I've never gone back and done something the

Matt Stagliano:

same way, everything is extraordinarily clear. And if

Matt Stagliano:

there are any additional costs associated anywhere along the

Matt Stagliano:

way, they are clearly communicated and signed off by

Matt Stagliano:

client and photographer. So I learned a lot of lessons from

Matt Stagliano:

that very first client that I had in the studio. And it's

Matt Stagliano:

still something today that I laugh about. And I think about

Matt Stagliano:

because we've run into each other occasionally in town, and

Matt Stagliano:

it's always a bit uncomfortable for him. So I just wanted to put

Matt Stagliano:

that out there that yeah, sometimes it can become, you

Matt Stagliano:

know, extraordinarily uncomfortable, almost to the

Matt Stagliano:

point of physical violence. So there's that.

Nicole York:

Doesn't everybody want to do it? Come along, run

Nicole York:

your own business. It's great. Yeah, that's, that is absolutely

Nicole York:

wild. And, and just proof in the pudding. How circumstantial so

Nicole York:

much of this is. And, you know, Matt, if you had not already

Nicole York:

done a lot of that internal work to be able to, like, if you were

Nicole York:

the person you were five years before, I imagine that would

Nicole York:

have been an entirely different experience for you. And that

Nicole York:

poor fella

Matt Stagliano:

100%. And you know, the interesting thing was

Matt Stagliano:

he kept complaint, you didn't retouch anything. I said,

Matt Stagliano:

Alright, hold on one second. And I would pull up the side by

Matt Stagliano:

side, the before and after. And it was very clear that I had

Matt Stagliano:

retouched everything. Well, you didn't shoot this type of thing?

Matt Stagliano:

Yes, I did. Let's take a look. And I proved every one of his

Matt Stagliano:

points incorrect in a calm, assured manner, I was unwilling

Matt Stagliano:

to give because I knew what I had done. And I knew the quality

Matt Stagliano:

of the work that I had done, I was not going to be belittled or

Matt Stagliano:

bullied into providing something that I didn't need to provide.

Matt Stagliano:

But in the end, I thought it was better for my business just to

Matt Stagliano:

basically cut and run, give him everything counted as a loss and

Matt Stagliano:

be done with it. And that's the only time that I've ever done

Matt Stagliano:

that.

Nicole York:

Yeah, Wolf, it's rough man. I the only similar

Nicole York:

experience, I mentioned the two times that I've had unhappy

Nicole York:

clients. The second time was a gal up from Denver, she wanted

Nicole York:

to come down and shoot with me, she wanted to start building a

Nicole York:

model portfolio. And she, she at first asked me if we can

Nicole York:

collaborate, and I let her know that I only do collaborations at

Nicole York:

this point for projects that I'm working on. And people I already

Nicole York:

have a relationship with. And so I let her know, what my rates

Nicole York:

were, and how many images she would get, what the experience

Nicole York:

would be like all that kind of stuff. She sent me, her her

Nicole York:

inspiration photos, and came down. It everything seems to go

Nicole York:

fine. She seemed like she was having a good time we captured a

Nicole York:

lot of images. If you've ever worked on model portfolios

Nicole York:

before, you will know that these are generally not very exciting,

Nicole York:

or highly styled images in big part, because the cleaner they

Nicole York:

are the better they show off the model, the easier the model is

Nicole York:

to sell. If you've worked with modeling agencies, you can go

Nicole York:

and have a look at some of the sum of their Digital's and see

Nicole York:

what those look like. So we do the images. We even did a couple

Nicole York:

of really stylized ones, just to give her something really be

Nicole York:

fun. And she contacted me back. And she's like, I, I really

Nicole York:

don't like these, like, I don't know what you did to me, but I

Nicole York:

just feel like I don't look good. My self confidence has

Nicole York:

really taken a hit. You know, she, she really felt bad. And of

Nicole York:

course, then I felt really bad because when I looked at the

Nicole York:

images, I thought she looked beautiful. And I never want

Nicole York:

anybody to work with me, and feel like I made them look

Nicole York:

worse. Which was a really strange experience. And so I

Nicole York:

said, Look, come back down. We will shoot again. And this time,

Nicole York:

we'll shoot tethered, I will show you the images that we

Nicole York:

capture, you approve everything. And so she's like, Okay, that

Nicole York:

sounds good. So she came down. This time, I discovered in this

Nicole York:

process that she was most used to seeing herself in selfies,

Nicole York:

she was also an exotic dancer. So most of the time, when she

Nicole York:

was being photographed, she was very, very made up, if you're

Nicole York:

trying to be a model, this is not what we do. If you if you

Nicole York:

want into the modeling industry, you do not show up with a full

Nicole York:

crazy face, the closer you are to bear, the better it's going

Nicole York:

to be for agencies who want to pick you up and be able to sell

Nicole York:

you, because clients need to know what your face looks like.

Nicole York:

So I altered the way that I was shooting, I shot her from above

Nicole York:

her eye level a little bit more often, I used a wider angle lens

Nicole York:

to mimic some of the effects that she would get from her

Nicole York:

phone. She approved, every photo we took. She said she loved

Nicole York:

them, all of that stuff. And then I retouched the images she

Nicole York:

picked and sent them to her. And she still wasn't happy. She

Nicole York:

still didn't like the way she looked after all of these

Nicole York:

things. And I said, and then she asked me for a refund. And I

Nicole York:

said, You know what I'm really, really sorry, that despite the

Nicole York:

best efforts on both occasions, and your approvals, through

Nicole York:

every step of the way, we still didn't get something you were

Nicole York:

happy with. But I have now cost sunk into this on your behalf.

Nicole York:

And that cost goes to the running of the business. This is

Nicole York:

not my take home, this is what the business needs in order to

Nicole York:

operate, you now have two sets of digital files, I really

Nicole York:

cannot give you a refund. And that was that was as far as the

Nicole York:

situation got.

Nicole York:

But, and luckily, she did not decide to you know, she she

Nicole York:

obviously felt like it was okay to let it go at that point. But

Nicole York:

she very easily if she wanted to could have gone off and tried to

Nicole York:

slander me or say anything she wanted online about my terrible

Nicole York:

service. But there really, you know, I had gone out of my way

Nicole York:

as far as possible, because I obviously did not charge her for

Nicole York:

the second shoot and I paid my makeup artists out of pocket to

Nicole York:

come back. So that was that was as far as it was gonna go. For

Nicole York:

me that was a point that was non negotiable. If we've gone to the

Nicole York:

effort of doing an entirely different shoot, where you've

Nicole York:

approved everything, I feel like I have come to your side, as far

Nicole York:

as principle will allow me to go. And that's unfortunately, as

Nicole York:

far as I can go, I didn't work with her again after that. I

Nicole York:

don't think she worked with any of the other photographers. I

Nicole York:

knew in that community after that, which was too bad because

Nicole York:

she was a beautiful girl. And she certainly could have

Nicole York:

eventually had a career in modeling. But at that point it

Nicole York:

was her own insecurities that we're at play against how she

Nicole York:

felt about the images, and not what would have been acceptable

Nicole York:

or even desirable for modeling portfolio. So sometimes, all you

Nicole York:

can do is not going to be enough. But I think and it

Nicole York:

sounds like our experience is that that is the rarity, right?

Nicole York:

For the most part, we are able to come to some kind of

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conclusion, by helping the client understand that we're on

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our side, and we want to fix the problems. So we are now very

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near to the end of the hour. I want to make sure that nobody in

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the audience has anything to share. Y'all are quiet today. I

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know it's not always easy to talk about times when you've had

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confrontations with clients, and you don't have to share those if

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you don't want to. But maybe you have some really great insights

Nicole York:

into ways that you can help a client understand that you are

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on their side and help find a middle ground so that you two

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can attack the problem as partners and not attack each

Nicole York:

other as enemies and if anybody has anything we'd love to have

Nicole York:

you raise your hand. You guys have so much valuable stuff to

Nicole York:

share.

Bekka Bjorke:

It's just that I wanted to grab onto what you

Bekka Bjorke:

just said about mentioning the model's own insecurities and I

Bekka Bjorke:

feel like often a lot of those kind of conflicts that we find

Bekka Bjorke:

stemmed from insecurity and all these various different ways. So

Bekka Bjorke:

one thing I think about earlier before I went on my bizarro

Bekka Bjorke:

tangent, was, you know, being able to relate to that to that

Bekka Bjorke:

emotional aspect to those insecurities yourself and how

Bekka Bjorke:

you might have experienced them, you know, in other businesses or

Bekka Bjorke:

whatever. And I think it's, it's very easy to try to one up

Bekka Bjorke:

people when you are relating to them, you know, as has been

Bekka Bjorke:

mentioned today, you know, not just waiting for your chance to

Bekka Bjorke:

speak, you know, or like, just, you know, waiting to say the

Bekka Bjorke:

next thing, but to really empathize in a way that's

Bekka Bjorke:

understandable to them. So if they're having a negative

Bekka Bjorke:

experience, or you know, their expectations weren't met, or

Bekka Bjorke:

they're feeling insecure about how they look, you can bring up

Bekka Bjorke:

your own anecdotal story there in a way that relates to them

Bekka Bjorke:

without having to prove that yours was worse. But I think if

Bekka Bjorke:

it's done with tact, and it's done gently, that can be so

Bekka Bjorke:

incredibly effective for breaching, use that barrier with

Bekka Bjorke:

your clients, because they can see that you totally do

Bekka Bjorke:

understand, and you do want to fix the problem. So really

Bekka Bjorke:

considering what those insecurities might be, what the

Bekka Bjorke:

emotional issue that they're having might be, and how you can

Bekka Bjorke:

relate to that.

Nicole York:

Absolutely. And, you know, that's, you've heard

Nicole York:

it said before, but will, it's worth saying, again, all

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photographers should be in front of someone else's camera at some

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point, just for the experience of what it is like to be on the

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other side, to go through the whole schlemiel. And, and feel

Nicole York:

what it is to be in that process. Because being able to

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relate to the client is kind of the soul of being able to have

Nicole York:

that empathy. I mean, if you've never had your portrait taken

Nicole York:

before, or you've never hired somebody for your business, or

Nicole York:

whatever it is, you can use your own experience in other areas to

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relate as best you can. But I absolutely believe the closer we

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can get to having that experience, the better we're

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going to be able to understand when somebody comes to us for

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feeling that experience has failed them somewhere. And, and

Nicole York:

you're right, Becca, I do believe we can share anecdotal

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experiences without making somebody feel like it's, it's

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yeah, the trauma Olympics, right. Like we we ours was

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worse, like, we don't have to go there. But I think it's really

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easy to say thank you for telling me. I never would want

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you to feel this way. I've had a similar situation before, I was

Nicole York:

really uncomfortable as well. So I know it took a great deal of

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courage for you to come to me with this problem today. And I

Nicole York:

appreciate that, I'm going to be able to make my business better,

Nicole York:

because you have told me this. So let's figure out how we can

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make this right. I mean, that is a an entirely different way to

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approach it. Then when both sides are looking at the other

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as if it's a person to overcome, rather than a partner to work

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with. I see we lost cat so she must be flying out. And we are

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only a few minutes from the end of the hour. So friends in the

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audience today. Last call. Do you have any thoughts about

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working through these situations and how we can find common

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ground when we have conflict and this would be a good time to

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mention obviously we're talking about clients. Does anybody have

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any thoughts about just confrontations that are not

Nicole York:

necessarily with clients? I see when is up with us. Hello, good

Nicole York:

sir. Would love to hear from you.

Win:

Hello, good morning. First I want to thank Kat if she's

Win:

still listening, maybe she's not. She was wonderful. Last

Win:

night she spoke at our local guild meeting. And she was cat

Win:

on steroids. She was wonderful. The the thing that we that comes

Win:

to mind when it when we talk about stuff like this. Several

Win:

years ago, I was hired by a very wealthy client to photograph her

Win:

family at Christmas time her extended family everybody had

Win:

come in from out of town. And her home was gorgeous. In fact,

Win:

her front entranceway had a staircase on which I eventually

Win:

photographed 28 people together. That gives you some idea of the

Win:

of this specs of the home. And while I was in there looking

Win:

around as to where we were going to photograph I noticed a

Win:

beautiful oil painting by a local artist whose name I will

Win:

not mention and I remarked on how beautiful it was. And she

Win:

looked at us she said yeah damn thing cost me $8,000 And I hate

Win:

it every time I look at it. Right then and there. It became

Win:

my policy to give a you have got to love it guarantee. If I take

Win:

your picture and you do not love it I will take your picture

Win:

again until you do. And if I cannot take your picture in such

Win:

a way that you will love it, that I will take them all back

Win:

and give you back all your money. Because I don't want any

Win:

of my work out there ever to be said, yeah, when did that

Win:

picture and it cost me $3,000. And I hate it. I never, ever,

Win:

ever want anybody to say that about my work. And I will in and

Win:

have changed the orientation of a family group picture. Because

Win:

they ordered a vertical, we printed it and mounted it and

Win:

hung it in the house. And as soon as I hung it, I knew that

Win:

she wasn't as overjoyed as I expected her to be. And in about

Win:

a week, she called me and said when this vertical is really not

Win:

the right orientation for this image, is there anything we can

Win:

do about it? And I said, Well, of course we can I have other

Win:

images from the same session that are horizontal. And if

Win:

you'd like that better, we'll just make another one. And so I

Win:

ended up with a good sample, she ended up happy. And I didn't

Win:

charge her for the extra work. We make enough when we sell big

Win:

wall wall art, so that we can make our clients happy. And it's

Win:

it's only if you run into someone who is completely

Win:

unresponsive or, or negative in everything that they had to say,

Win:

and I have a solution for that too, is it's give me back all

Win:

the pictures, I'll give you back all your money, and will part

Win:

friends. And I will never work with her again. But that's how I

Win:

solve it. And that and that has stood me in very good stead for

Win:

the for my whole career. So that's what I had to say. Good

Win:

morning, everybody.

Nicole York:

I love that when and I would absolutely encourage

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folks, when you were looking at how you build your business

Nicole York:

structure and what your profits are, it is a really, really good

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idea to build your profit structure in such a way that

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full refunds do become an option. Because if a refund is

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going to put you out of business, if a full refund means

Nicole York:

you can't pay your bills, you really, really want to look at

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the way that you've structured your business. And that with

Nicole York:

when you build it with customer service in mind, understanding

Nicole York:

that I have enough clients, I do enough of this. So that if a

Nicole York:

full refund becomes the way to make someone happy, I can do

Nicole York:

that. It's a pretty big deal. So certainly be keeping that in

Nicole York:

mind. I love that approach when and I know for those of you who

Nicole York:

know Megan DiPiro, she is a highly successful portrait

Nicole York:

photographer in Florida, fantastic businesswoman in all

Nicole York:

respects. And she does not do contracts at all, her policy is

Nicole York:

very much like wins, she is absolutely going to make you

Nicole York:

happy at at whatever cost, which not only gives people a lot of

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faith in her when they come to work with her, even

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understanding that they're about to spend quite a bit of money.

Nicole York:

But also, she has an approach of empathy. That is to the extreme,

Nicole York:

recognizing that nobody thinks of themselves as a bad person,

Nicole York:

everybody is the hero of their own story. And when they come to

Nicole York:

us with a grievance, that grievance is very, very real to

Nicole York:

them. And I would I would recommend, she has a book called

Nicole York:

she sells highly recommend it. Anything you can learn from her

Nicole York:

is going to be valuable. And it's absolutely right in line

Nicole York:

with the way that you approach things when so I love that.

Nicole York:

Anthony would love to hear from you as well. Good morning.

Unknown:

Hi, good morning, everybody. Always a pleasure to

Unknown:

learn from you guys. I just want to share real quick one thing

Unknown:

that had helped me with conflicts on in the business and

Unknown:

whatnot, is just simply giving the benefit of the doubt to my

Unknown:

clients, or our guests in the corporate business that I worked

Unknown:

before. Just given the benefit of the doubt sometimes even they

Unknown:

know that they're wrong, but just the simple fact that I gave

Unknown:

them a way out of the situation. It literally brings their

Unknown:

defenses down. And he has saved me so much confrontation,

Unknown:

whether I have it on the contract or not. Unfortunately,

Unknown:

sometimes people don't read people don't the people don't

Unknown:

read and then sometimes just giving them the benefit of the

Unknown:

doubt. I don't know if you saw this policy or you saw this. And

Unknown:

of course we have our non negotiables and all that stuff,

Unknown:

but just by doing that simple thing have saved me so much

Unknown:

havoc, and I just wanted to share Thank you.

Nicole York:

So much great information today, guys, and

Nicole York:

important stories shared that we can learn from. first want to

Nicole York:

make sure that I acknowledge and appreciate everybody who shared,

Nicole York:

it is not easy to talk about times, when clients have not

Nicole York:

been happy with you. I think each of us would like to believe

Nicole York:

you know that we are, we are successful always, and having

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people thrilled with what we've done. And sometimes, it's just

Nicole York:

not going to happen. Sometimes it's not going to be a good fit,

Nicole York:

the person hasn't had a good week, who knows there are a

Nicole York:

million different reasons why it's not going to work out the

Nicole York:

way that we planned. But if we take our time, if we build good

Nicole York:

systems, if we set expectations beforehand, and obviously,

Nicole York:

client education, and managing expectations, is going to be a

Nicole York:

huge, huge piece of avoiding those confrontations before they

Nicole York:

happen. But if we set our intention, and make sure that

Nicole York:

intention is that the client walks away happy. And how do we

Nicole York:

get there from here, making sure that we retain our empathy, like

Nicole York:

Anthony said that we're giving them the benefit of the doubt,

Nicole York:

let's not walk into the situation, assuming our client

Nicole York:

is a bad guy who's just out to take advantage of us. Most

Nicole York:

people see themselves as the hero of their own story, they

Nicole York:

don't consider what they're doing as bad or negative, they

Nicole York:

will have absolutely valid reasons for thinking and feeling

Nicole York:

how they do. And we need to make sure that we understand that,

Nicole York:

that we are accounting for our own biases. And that when we go

Nicole York:

into the situation, we look for that common ground, so that

Nicole York:

instead of the client, being the enemy, or the aggressor, and us

Nicole York:

being the defender, we now become allies and attacking the

Nicole York:

problem and not one another. And however, we need to go about

Nicole York:

wording that. And however we need to structure our business

Nicole York:

so that that becomes possible. It's worthwhile because

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remember, business is only exists to add value to people's

Nicole York:

lives. And if your business is not doing that, then you may

Nicole York:

want to consider if it's your business, that's the problem and

Nicole York:

not your client and look at how you can change or restructure

Nicole York:

things so that you are adding value to someone's life. And

Nicole York:

when you're in that position, it is much more likely that you're

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going to have more success than failure. So this has been a

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fantastic conversation. We've covered a lot of ground on

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dealing with conflict and confrontation this week. And I

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hope that everything that has been shared so far has been a

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value to you and you feel like you're may be able to walk away

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with some better ways of dealing with confrontation. For the next

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couple of days, we're going to talk about avoiding

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confrontation entirely, by what I talked about just a moment

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ago, by making sure your education process and your

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expectation management process for your customers is really,

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really strong. We have some amazing business people in here.

Nicole York:

And I think we're going to get some great advice from them on

Nicole York:

how they educate their clients on how they set expectations and

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how they manage the process so that at the end of the client

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experience, they are much more likely to walk away thrilled

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with the fact that they've worked with you and not come

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back because they've been having problems. So that'll be some

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really great practical application for us. And

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hopefully that will set us up so that next week, if we do end up

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having any confrontations with folks, we feel like we're in a

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much better place to deal with them. So thanks, everybody who

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was here today for everything that you shared friends in the

Nicole York:

audience. Thanks for coming out and hanging out with us. We love

Nicole York:

having you guys here. Hopefully you will also join us tomorrow

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morning and tomorrow evening where we will be live in the

Nicole York:

Facebook group and on YouTube as the artists forge talking a

Nicole York:

little bit about what we talked about this week. Some of our

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experiences will also be breaking down an image or two

Nicole York:

and and given some feedback there in our ever moving quest

Nicole York:

for better visual literacy. And we'd love to see you guys there.

Nicole York:

Audience participation is the best part about going live. So

Nicole York:

we hope you'll come and hang out with us. And until tomorrow

Nicole York:

morning. Have a fantastic day and go make something amazing. I

Nicole York:

Hey everybody.

Matt Stagliano:

Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse

Matt Stagliano:

discussion moderated by all of us at the artists Forge. We hope

Matt Stagliano:

you found the information useful and then it helps you gain a

Matt Stagliano:

little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft. For more

Matt Stagliano:

episodes, please join us each weekday on clubhouse or visit

Matt Stagliano:

the artist forge.com Go make something incredible

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About the Podcast

Morning Walk with The Artist's Forge
How to Critique Art
Learn how mindset, creativity, and visual literacy will help you think like an artist so you can create work you love and build a career that matters; bridging the gap between technique and art.

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Nicole York