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Published on:

18th Jan 2022

Conflict Management: Educating Your Clients

It's important for artists to know how to manage conflict with their customers, but avoiding confrontation through education and expectation management can limit conflicts in the first place.

In today's podcast, you'll hear how artistic business people handle client education to avoid conflict in the long term.

Transcript
Matt Stagliano:

Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being

Matt Stagliano:

part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who

Matt Stagliano:

help each other think like an artist. By discussing creativity

Matt Stagliano:

as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone

Matt Stagliano:

has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need

Matt Stagliano:

some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What

Matt Stagliano:

you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily

Matt Stagliano:

discussions on the clubhouse app. If you like what you hear,

Matt Stagliano:

I encourage you to join our private Facebook group, or visit

Matt Stagliano:

us on the web at the artist forged calm. Now on to the show.

Nicole York:

It's time to say good morning, and welcome to

Nicole York:

Morning walk and photo talk with the artists Forge. So glad to

Nicole York:

have everybody with us today. Really excited to get started.

Nicole York:

Particularly because the last few days, we've talked about

Nicole York:

conflict management, and how we deal with confrontation. And we

Nicole York:

talked a lot about the things that we would need to personally

Nicole York:

do. As far as keeping in mind our own biases, giving ourselves

Nicole York:

time to respond, setting an intention for the conflict,

Nicole York:

finding some common ground, making sure that the other

Nicole York:

person, particularly if it's client related, understands that

Nicole York:

we are on their side, that we want to solve this problem

Nicole York:

together. And just really looking at what we can do to

Nicole York:

make a conflict or confrontation not so painful and have an

Nicole York:

outcome that is desirable. What we didn't talk about are some of

Nicole York:

the things we can do as business people beforehand, to set the

Nicole York:

stage so that we don't have so many conflicts with our clients

Nicole York:

later on. And, of course, we want to make the customer

Nicole York:

journey as enjoyable and painless as possible. And if we

Nicole York:

can build our businesses and set up our our kind of workflow in

Nicole York:

such a way that by the end of the experience, customers are

Nicole York:

nothing but happy. And that is a win for us. So today, we are

Nicole York:

going to be focusing on the things that we can do beforehand

Nicole York:

to build a good foundation so that we can avoid those

Nicole York:

confrontations with our customers. And there are think

Nicole York:

three main things that we'll be chatting about today. One is

Nicole York:

building our business in such a way that the customer journey is

Nicole York:

easy that it flows for them, that there's no confusion from

Nicole York:

step two. Step number two is managing expectations. Number

Nicole York:

three is client education, which is part of that customer

Nicole York:

journey. So educating clients and managing expectations. And

Nicole York:

we'll also add a few more things into those as we go along. Some

Nicole York:

things techniques that we can use as part of customer

Nicole York:

education and expectation management like repetitions, the

Nicole York:

more times somebody can hear something, the more times

Nicole York:

they're going to well, not the more times, they only need to

Nicole York:

remember it once for memorizing. Anyway, you get the point I was

Nicole York:

trying to avoid the leaves. And I broke my concentration. Yeah,

Nicole York:

so the easier it will be for them to remember so that

Nicole York:

hopefully, by the end, they know what to expect. They know why

Nicole York:

everything costs what it does. They know what the whole process

Nicole York:

is going to look like. And there's less room for

Nicole York:

misunderstanding. So first, I would love to hear from the mods

Nicole York:

today. What are some things that y'all do to create an

Nicole York:

environment where conflict is less likely with your customers?

Bassam Sabbagh:

First today, oh.

Cat Ford-Coates:

Oh, sorry. I'm driving. So I was like, oh,

Cat Ford-Coates:

educate.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Yeah, yeah. You want to go ahead?

Nicole York:

Yeah, let's go since we're gonna lose her early

Nicole York:

today. We have

Cat Ford-Coates:

right now who is on a budget but really wants

Cat Ford-Coates:

to invest in imagery with she and her daughters. And he is

Cat Ford-Coates:

throwing up all of the the flags and trying to negotiate and kind

Cat Ford-Coates:

of wheel and deal on things. And when something like that is not

Cat Ford-Coates:

handled with education and service at the forefront, it

Cat Ford-Coates:

will absolutely 1,000% turn into an issue in the sales room. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

what I mean by that is, she's like well, I really want to

Cat Ford-Coates:

create some memory books and what about the stuff that I

Cat Ford-Coates:

don't buy it would it be possible to have you know, like,

Cat Ford-Coates:

screenshots or proof pages have the unedited images so that we

Cat Ford-Coates:

can remember the day. And my associate called me and she was

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, it's not a thing. And I was like, it's absolutely not a

Cat Ford-Coates:

thing. We only release purchased imagery. And she was like, Yeah,

Cat Ford-Coates:

but if it's not edited, you know, like, really is it any

Cat Ford-Coates:

skin off our nose, and this is coming from my associates. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

so I was like, okay, so this is a really great opportunity to

Cat Ford-Coates:

head that kind of conflict off at the past, especially when the

Cat Ford-Coates:

photographer isn't realizing everything that goes into the

Cat Ford-Coates:

price point on those images. And so, you know, I hopped on a call

Cat Ford-Coates:

with both of them and answered mom's questions and was like,

Cat Ford-Coates:

Look, you know, our price point is determined, not just around,

Cat Ford-Coates:

taking the photo, and retouching the photo. But you know, she's

Cat Ford-Coates:

also coming in and doesn't want to bring your own clothes wants

Cat Ford-Coates:

to use our studio wardrobe. And you know, all the things and

Cat Ford-Coates:

wants us to include her makeup for her daughter's for without

Cat Ford-Coates:

charging her for it. And I said, you know, we're happy to

Cat Ford-Coates:

include, you know, a really light makeup for your girls and

Cat Ford-Coates:

give you access to the studio. But it also covers the insurance

Cat Ford-Coates:

and the liability that we carry, and the overhead for the studio

Cat Ford-Coates:

and the education and expertise that the photographer has before

Cat Ford-Coates:

you even walk in the door. And the way that you know, we

Cat Ford-Coates:

generate revenue in the business is for the sale of imagery. So

Cat Ford-Coates:

as much as you know, you might really appreciate having, Sir,

Cat Ford-Coates:

there's somebody just parked perpendicular in the middle of

Cat Ford-Coates:

the street. Okay, lady. But it's all of these components that go

Cat Ford-Coates:

into that value. And if we released those unedited images

Cat Ford-Coates:

to you, then really what do we have to sell. So we would be

Cat Ford-Coates:

happy to set up a payment plan for you and educate her on that

Cat Ford-Coates:

as a possibility. But understand that anything that you love, we

Cat Ford-Coates:

want you to buy, of course, and we'll be happy to incentivize

Cat Ford-Coates:

that for you. But we're not interested in just giving away

Cat Ford-Coates:

imagery, simply because you can't afford it. And you know, I

Cat Ford-Coates:

didn't say it quite like that. But being able to educate the

Cat Ford-Coates:

client on the front end is what is allowing us to avoid that.

Cat Ford-Coates:

But I really just want it at the sales room. And help also

Cat Ford-Coates:

educate the photographer, like it's not just about the

Cat Ford-Coates:

retouching you do or don't have to do.

Nicole York:

I think that's so so important cat and I love, I

Nicole York:

love that you're letting the client know that they are

Nicole York:

entering only a very small part in the cost structure of the

Nicole York:

business. Because obviously, even just attaining a client,

Nicole York:

you're also talking about marketing, and management and

Nicole York:

all of the things that go into just getting somebody through

Nicole York:

the door, just a long process. How do you and where do you

Nicole York:

include those education points? So clearly, when you're doing

Nicole York:

the consultation, that's a chance for education, right? Are

Nicole York:

there other specific areas during the customer journey that

Nicole York:

you make sure, these are points for education?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Well, in that introductory email, like we

Cat Ford-Coates:

talked about, you know, not too long ago. There are those next

Cat Ford-Coates:

steps that are listed, and understanding like, Hey, this is

Cat Ford-Coates:

our process. This is what that process looks like. Whoa, sorry.

Cat Ford-Coates:

But having deaf pieces of education throughout all of the

Cat Ford-Coates:

written communication as well as in that console, and then

Cat Ford-Coates:

reviewing sort of like the the high Highline touch points when

Cat Ford-Coates:

they even come in so they'll go into hair and makeup and I'll

Cat Ford-Coates:

bring over product oh, by the way, I really wanted you to see

Cat Ford-Coates:

this. This is the folio box because everybody goes like a

Cat Ford-Coates:

folio box, I just want pictures. Or this is what our album looks

Cat Ford-Coates:

like and oh this is a beautiful framed portrait, la la la la la

Cat Ford-Coates:

a lot so that there is as many senses as you can touch on will

Cat Ford-Coates:

allow that information to be solidified in their

Cat Ford-Coates:

understanding. So you know I site for that written

Cat Ford-Coates:

communication, touch, having them hold, hold artwork in their

Cat Ford-Coates:

hands and hearing it and then asking them to repeat it back to

Cat Ford-Coates:

you. So you know, you solidify that education throughout

Cat Ford-Coates:

because remember the rule right like nobody remembers the words

Cat Ford-Coates:

unless they speak them. So as often as you can get them to

Cat Ford-Coates:

repeat the information back to you in a conversational way. The

Cat Ford-Coates:

less issue you're going to have when it comes time for the sale

Cat Ford-Coates:

because the sale is made everywhere until like the sales

Cat Ford-Coates:

room is just choosing what they love. and receiving money for

Cat Ford-Coates:

then an equal exchange.

Nicole York:

Okay, awesome. So we have the initial

Nicole York:

consultation. And then we have kind of continuing reinforcement

Nicole York:

during the process, even during things like hair and makeup or

Nicole York:

whatever, where they can get their hands on some of these

Nicole York:

things. Is there any other period for education, that you

Nicole York:

try to take advantage of like any, maybe at the end of the

Nicole York:

session before they come back later for their sales session,

Nicole York:

or I mean, just anything else, other folks might be able to

Nicole York:

look at also incorporating into their process.

Cat Ford-Coates:

On there's definitely like that follow up

Cat Ford-Coates:

email. Or you could also do it in a text like, hey, we really

Cat Ford-Coates:

have so much fun photographing you today. I'm looking at your

Cat Ford-Coates:

images right now. And oh, my God, I'm blown away. I can't

Cat Ford-Coates:

wait for your sales session confirm date, I've attached a

Cat Ford-Coates:

copy of our pricing menu for your review. So you don't have

Cat Ford-Coates:

to go digging for it. I hate digging for

Nicole York:

love that. Oh, people steal that. It's so so

Nicole York:

good. And so smart. Yes. Okay. So, first example of things that

Nicole York:

we can do, which I know, you know, besom is going to touch on

Nicole York:

as well, to avoid those confrontations later in the

Nicole York:

process, is making sure we begin client education, right from the

Nicole York:

very outset, and then reinforce it the whole time. So that we

Nicole York:

are planting those seeds, helping them understand the

Nicole York:

process, making sure they know what to expect when it comes to,

Nicole York:

you know, price points, all that kind of stuff. That way, there

Nicole York:

really is not much of a basis for later on saying, "But I

Nicole York:

thought..." because you will have given them so many

Nicole York:

opportunities for education. So Bassam, I'd love to hear what

Nicole York:

you have to say this morning, too.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Yeah, good morning, everyone. It's along

Bassam Sabbagh:

the same lines as Cat. But I just want to get into a couple

Bassam Sabbagh:

more details about the how I do my consultation sessions. But

Bassam Sabbagh:

before I do that, I just want to say it's extremely ironic, and

Bassam Sabbagh:

it's too bad that I missed the last two days. Because believe

Bassam Sabbagh:

it or not, while I missed those days, what I was doing, was

Bassam Sabbagh:

actually giving training and one on one coaching on how to manage

Bassam Sabbagh:

conflict and how to de escalate challenging situations. Anyway,

Bassam Sabbagh:

so yeah. That was fun. Like, it's

Nicole York:

blog posts.

Bassam Sabbagh:

I know, I know, you're gonna say that. Yes, it

Bassam Sabbagh:

sounds like it's a blog post time, and I can do that. So

Bassam Sabbagh:

yeah, as far as, as far as educating my clients, I want to

Bassam Sabbagh:

go back to the consultation session, because I mentioned

Bassam Sabbagh:

before my number one goal when I get on the phone with somebody

Bassam Sabbagh:

or first email, because most of my most of my my clients come

Bassam Sabbagh:

lately come from my, through my website, they fill in the form

Bassam Sabbagh:

and I send them an email. I rarely call them but I send them

Bassam Sabbagh:

an email to set up a zoom call, right. And my goal there is to

Bassam Sabbagh:

explain everything, educate them on the process. And I say

Bassam Sabbagh:

upfront the purpose of this meeting is for me to for me to

Bassam Sabbagh:

find out more about what you're looking for. And for you to get

Bassam Sabbagh:

all the information that you need. I tell them that I my

Bassam Sabbagh:

number one objective is that they find that working with me

Bassam Sabbagh:

is a good fit. And that sometime somewhere in the conversation, I

Bassam Sabbagh:

would say I'm I'm trying to I'm providing you all the

Bassam Sabbagh:

information you need. So that when we move forward, when you

Bassam Sabbagh:

decide to go through with this, all the details are behind us,

Bassam Sabbagh:

you're comfortable with our process, you're comfortable with

Bassam Sabbagh:

me, you're comfortable with the pricing, and then we can focus

Bassam Sabbagh:

on you your session and and trying and starting to plan it

Bassam Sabbagh:

properly. Right so so I go through the pricing in relative

Bassam Sabbagh:

detail in the in the session. And I follow and I go through

Bassam Sabbagh:

the process I try to kind of explain everywhere where they're

Bassam Sabbagh:

involved to show them the time I'm going to be spending with

Bassam Sabbagh:

them in terms of preparation, what we do during the session,

Bassam Sabbagh:

blah blah blah you've heard all that before. But then I follow

Bassam Sabbagh:

up with an email that includes the detailed pricing and

Bassam Sabbagh:

depending how conversation went how you know, like I try to fill

Bassam Sabbagh:

out how did they capture my pricing My biggest fear is that

Bassam Sabbagh:

I'm gonna get I'm gonna get into conflict about you know, some of

Bassam Sabbagh:

the stories we've heard about pricing and and what Kat just

Bassam Sabbagh:

described. So I I follow up with the email and I kind of write

Bassam Sabbagh:

little hints the repeat the fact that the session fee doesn't

Bassam Sabbagh:

include any pictures and you you We know a new pay, you don't

Bassam Sabbagh:

have to worry about paying until you select the photos you're

Bassam Sabbagh:

gonna purchase. So I just keep keep the language in a way and

Bassam Sabbagh:

then if they and once I send them the keep the language And I

Bassam Sabbagh:

use repetitive language to reinforce things. And usually,

Bassam Sabbagh:

you know, they may, they may answer right away after they

Bassam Sabbagh:

look at it. But after two or three days, I follow up, and I

Bassam Sabbagh:

check that they looked at the information looked at the

Bassam Sabbagh:

pricing, and do they have any questions, so maybe I overdo it.

Bassam Sabbagh:

But I have so far never had an argument about pricing or

Bassam Sabbagh:

conflict about pricing after the fact, with a client, I've had

Bassam Sabbagh:

lots of discussions about how expensive it is. And it's not

Bassam Sabbagh:

for me, during the consultations. So hopefully,

Bassam Sabbagh:

it'll keep going that way. But you know, chances are,

Bassam Sabbagh:

statistically speaking, somebody will be the stuff one day, so

Bassam Sabbagh:

I'm not looking forward to that.

Nicole York:

I'm gonna, it definitely sounds like you

Nicole York:

really are setting that stage for that long term

Nicole York:

understanding. And I love the fact that you mentioned

Nicole York:

repetition, because we really do, we can't just tell people,

Nicole York:

here's where you can find the pricing, and then just let it

Nicole York:

go. We really do have to repeat that several times, particularly

Nicole York:

those of us who have purposely moved ourselves up to higher

Nicole York:

price points. Because not only are we not only are we outside

Nicole York:

the realm of their expectations, when we do that, sometimes, but

Nicole York:

also, you know, something becomes comfortable, the more it

Nicole York:

happens. And so while hearing it on initial meeting might be a

Nicole York:

little bit of a shocker, the more you repeat it, the less it

Nicole York:

starts to sound like something to be shocked about. And the

Nicole York:

more it starts to seem like oh, well, that's pretty natural. And

Nicole York:

then if you have cats process, where you're continuing to

Nicole York:

reinforce the quality that somebody is getting, and here's

Nicole York:

these beautiful folios. And here's what wall art looks like,

Nicole York:

and we're going to be spending this amount of time with you and

Nicole York:

look, here comes your makeup artist, and all of these things.

Nicole York:

And we continue to reinforce that, all of a sudden, that

Nicole York:

price point doesn't seem so high anymore, because it's being

Nicole York:

reinforced by the experience that you're having. So I love

Nicole York:

that song. And I'm really glad to hear that your process so far

Nicole York:

has been so effective with making sure people don't end up

Nicole York:

with that sticker shock at the end.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Yeah, and something I've been doing

Bassam Sabbagh:

lately, and I think it's thanks to Sarah, she's done in the

Bassam Sabbagh:

crowd. I was talking to Sarah and and I wasn't doing it

Bassam Sabbagh:

before. But because we're doing zoom as an in person. Lately,

Bassam Sabbagh:

I've been showing the products on Zoom. So I would have a max

Bassam Sabbagh:

neck, I would have the albums and a folio box next to me. And

Bassam Sabbagh:

I'd lift it up but at the camera and show them what it looks

Bassam Sabbagh:

like. Because again, it's hard to describe, I used to tell

Bassam Sabbagh:

them, when you come here for your session, we'll go through

Bassam Sabbagh:

the products. But that's kind of too late. I need to show them

Bassam Sabbagh:

that before. So I started doing that very recently, actually in

Bassam Sabbagh:

the last three or four weeks.

Nicole York:

Nice. And have you seen? I mean, I realize it's

Nicole York:

still early. But have you seen any change in results yet?

Bassam Sabbagh:

Well, actually, I've seen a change in results

Bassam Sabbagh:

late lately. I'm not sure if it's because of that or because

Bassam Sabbagh:

my my little Google ad that I optimize has been working much

Bassam Sabbagh:

more effectively. And I've got some bookings from that. So

Nicole York:

nice. Okay, rad. So so far, we've had two really

Nicole York:

great examples of how education helps us manage expectations,

Nicole York:

right, those two things together that become so, so important,

Nicole York:

and how repetition also becomes a really great tool to implant

Nicole York:

that in people's heads so that they know what to expect. Matt,

Nicole York:

what are some things that you do to build those foundations early

Nicole York:

on, so you can avoid confrontation later with your

Nicole York:

clients?

Matt Stagliano:

You know, while I have processes that are very

Matt Stagliano:

similar to besar,

Nicole York:

a place where he can unmute himself unless he's

Nicole York:

talking to your microphone,

Matt Stagliano:

you guessed it. So back here it is at least

Matt Stagliano:

three or four times a week, Matt's a moron. Alright, so you

Matt Stagliano:

know, my process is very similar to besar in cats in terms of our

Matt Stagliano:

flow in education. I know however, I am a ticking time

Matt Stagliano:

bomb of conflict ready to happen. And I only say that

Matt Stagliano:

because I get into such conversations with people when

Matt Stagliano:

they're in the studio or on our consultation calls. And we're

Matt Stagliano:

talking about the shoot and how everything goes and the feeling

Matt Stagliano:

that they'll get and why this is important. And all the

Matt Stagliano:

connection pieces write that I that I pride myself on the

Matt Stagliano:

connection to their story, understanding what it is that

Matt Stagliano:

they need, how they're going to look really crafting it with

Matt Stagliano:

them, that Admittedly, I often drop the ball in doing that

Matt Stagliano:

repetition of doing the things that always you know, they make

Matt Stagliano:

me feel uncomfortable. I still feel uncomfortable talking about

Matt Stagliano:

price. I still feel uncomfortable talking about

Matt Stagliano:

money. That's something that I've gotten over and I forced

Matt Stagliano:

myself through it, and I have no real problem with it. But it's

Matt Stagliano:

still uncomfortable for me. That being said, it's an integral

Matt Stagliano:

part to making sure that everybody's very well educated

Matt Stagliano:

across the board on what it is you're providing, what your

Matt Stagliano:

service is, how much it costs, so that there are no objections

Matt Stagliano:

down the road. Now, every now and again, I get someone that's

Matt Stagliano:

just like, Oh, I forgot about that, or, Oh, I didn't look at

Matt Stagliano:

the price list, you're always going to get that which is why

Matt Stagliano:

the education upfront is so important. But yeah, I do very

Matt Stagliano:

similar things. In terms of what Assam was saying, about showing

Matt Stagliano:

product, when someone is there in the studio with me, I'm

Matt Stagliano:

absolutely showing them all of the product, it's displayed

Matt Stagliano:

everywhere, they can see different versions of it. It's,

Matt Stagliano:

I want it to be subconsciously seek seeping into their brain,

Matt Stagliano:

how it's displayed, how they might see it in their home, I'm

Matt Stagliano:

handing it to them, I'm letting them look through some of the

Matt Stagliano:

albums and the folio boxes. That's great. When I'm on Zoom,

Matt Stagliano:

I fail at that, admittedly, I don't bring the products on to

Matt Stagliano:

zoom. Because I forget, quite frankly, when we're talking

Matt Stagliano:

about pricing, I make it very clear that you know what my

Matt Stagliano:

prices are, where they're going. So that there they don't get

Matt Stagliano:

sticker shock at the end or feel like there was some sort of bait

Matt Stagliano:

and switch. But what I find with my clients specifically, because

Matt Stagliano:

they're coming to me for less glamour, more natural look more

Matt Stagliano:

personal branding, more connection, capturing a certain

Matt Stagliano:

part of them, that I'm not focusing a lot on hair and

Matt Stagliano:

makeup, I'm not focusing a lot on the luxurious extras that a

Matt Stagliano:

lot of people succeed very, very well with, it's just not part of

Matt Stagliano:

my thing. So I find myself educating them on the process of

Matt Stagliano:

photography, the value that they're getting, why so much

Matt Stagliano:

time goes into this, I explain lighting, I explain how the

Matt Stagliano:

camera works, I answer their questions that they have about

Matt Stagliano:

what it is that I do. That, for me is the education part that

Matt Stagliano:

makes them comfortable with the rest of everything that I'm

Matt Stagliano:

trying to sell them, the sale becomes a natural part of the

Matt Stagliano:

process at that point. So, you know, a lot of times I find that

Matt Stagliano:

folks are intimidated by what we do, if I can break it down to

Matt Stagliano:

them and say, I'm really no different from you. I've just

Matt Stagliano:

studied this stuff, then they feel more comfortable that

Matt Stagliano:

they're in good hands. So it's that customer journey. It's the

Matt Stagliano:

education. But like I said, admittedly I fail time to time,

Matt Stagliano:

you know, questions come up, I'm like, Damn, I should have

Matt Stagliano:

addressed that in the original email or the consultation. Well,

Matt Stagliano:

here it is, here's the education and we never get to the point

Matt Stagliano:

where it's a big fire. But yeah, I'm always tweaking and finding

Matt Stagliano:

better ways to educate upfront, so that there are fewer

Matt Stagliano:

questions down the road.

Nicole York:

You know, Matt, what you said that I really

Nicole York:

loved and that I really latched on to, as you were explaining

Nicole York:

your process is how much you focus on connection. And I think

Nicole York:

that's a really important thing that we should be talking about,

Nicole York:

when we look at avoiding those confrontations or those

Nicole York:

conflicts later on down the road during the customer journey,

Nicole York:

because being able to create that connection with somebody,

Nicole York:

so that you see them as a person, they see you as a

Nicole York:

person, you start to build some of those emotional ties to one

Nicole York:

another. It becomes much more difficult to, to hold a grudge

Nicole York:

against somebody that you genuinely like and have made a

Nicole York:

connection with the process of confronting a friend about an

Nicole York:

issue versus the process of confronting a stranger, about an

Nicole York:

issue is very different. And I know most of us have experienced

Nicole York:

that in our lives. And when you can take the time to build a

Nicole York:

personal relationship with your customer. You've already

Nicole York:

established the fact that you're both on the same side. And I

Nicole York:

think later on down the road. If issues do crop up, probably

Nicole York:

they're going to be a lot more comfortable coming to you from a

Nicole York:

place of Hey, Matt, here's what's going on. I didn't really

Nicole York:

understand this now I'm in kind of a pickle as opposed to you

Nicole York:

never told me I can't believe you're such a terrible business

Nicole York:

person. I'm never gonna pay that you know what I mean? Like the

Nicole York:

whole connection becomes entirely different, which I

Nicole York:

think really sets the stage for what those confrontations will

Nicole York:

look like down the road if they do happen to occur.

Matt Stagliano:

Yeah, you know, I'm I'm very confident in my

Matt Stagliano:

process of producing photography for clients. very confident in

Matt Stagliano:

people coming in feeling comfortable in the studio, or at

Matt Stagliano:

least that I'm able to get them to be comfortable in the studio,

Matt Stagliano:

the pricing thing, money is always something that, in my

Matt Stagliano:

opinion, makes everybody uncomfortable. So what I try to

Matt Stagliano:

do is prove my value through all of the service through taking

Matt Stagliano:

care of them. I don't shy away from the question, when I'm

Matt Stagliano:

asked, I do make sure that they understand that throughout this,

Matt Stagliano:

you know, hey, you can buy all the photos that you want, you

Matt Stagliano:

can put that addition on my house that I've been wanting to

Matt Stagliano:

have. But I understand that you might also have a budget. So

Matt Stagliano:

let's work within that, you know, and making them understand

Matt Stagliano:

that I know what money issues are like, Yes, this is

Matt Stagliano:

expensive. No, I'm not giving a discount. However, I will work

Matt Stagliano:

with you. And I think it's just that, that understanding that,

Matt Stagliano:

yes, this is an investment. But this is a worthwhile investment,

Matt Stagliano:

this really is going to mean something to you and your family

Matt Stagliano:

down the line, once you start showing them that value versus

Matt Stagliano:

having a shiny new iPhone. I think they they get it, at least

Matt Stagliano:

my clients do. And they feel more comfortable with that. But

Matt Stagliano:

for me, the pricing issue is always the stickiest part of my

Matt Stagliano:

entire business. So I try to take extra care to make sure

Matt Stagliano:

that they're very, very comfortable that I'm the right

Matt Stagliano:

fit for them. If not, I'll refer them out to photographers that

Matt Stagliano:

are just as good, but might be at a different price point.

Nicole York:

Sure. Okay, I hope everybody has been really

Nicole York:

listening and absorbing, because we have three fantastic business

Nicole York:

people giving you so much great information on what their

Nicole York:

process is like that not only prepares and educates, and

Nicole York:

manages client expectations, but also builds relationships, so

Nicole York:

that toward the end of the customer journey, we have happy

Nicole York:

customers and less of a chance of those confrontations over

Nicole York:

things like pricing. And I want to kind of run through really

Nicole York:

quickly before we begin inviting members of the audience up to

Nicole York:

share some of the things that they do beforehand. I want to

Nicole York:

just kind of go through what a script might look like, if

Nicole York:

somebody wanted to start looking at their workflow and asking

Nicole York:

themselves, Okay, where can I purposefully put client

Nicole York:

education in my workflow, so that it becomes a seamless part

Nicole York:

of this customer experience? I know that I'm educating, I know

Nicole York:

that I'm reinforcing. I know that I'm managing expectations.

Nicole York:

So for most of us, we have an initial contact point with the

Nicole York:

cut summer. Let's say that that is our website, you have options

Nicole York:

there, there are two schools of thought on whether you should

Nicole York:

put pricing on your website, it really depends on how you want

Nicole York:

to run your business, and how you want to manage expectations,

Nicole York:

it would make no sense for me, because everything I do is

Nicole York:

highly specialized, which means I may be buying parts of

Nicole York:

costumes, I may not I may be going on location, I may not I

Nicole York:

may be looking at commercial licensing, I may not. So I have

Nicole York:

to build a bid for somebody from the ground up, I cannot just

Nicole York:

give them my day rate. Because some things are going to be

Nicole York:

included in that such as costume building, that may not be an

Nicole York:

issue otherwise. So that doesn't make any sense for me.

Nicole York:

If you're in a position that is similar, or the experience is

Nicole York:

highly customized, it may work for you not to include a price,

Nicole York:

it may work for you to include a ballpark, most clients spend

Nicole York:

approximately this much money. Or you may be the kind of person

Nicole York:

who has very set packages. And you can say, this is what you're

Nicole York:

looking at, not only are you screening your clients, but

Nicole York:

that's the initial point of education. So your website

Nicole York:

should be the initial point of education, whether you're

Nicole York:

showing them what the customer experience is like what your

Nicole York:

products look like before and afters, beautiful imagery,

Nicole York:

whatever it is, that should be the first point of plan

Nicole York:

education. Then you have your contact and however you respond

Nicole York:

to your contact. That is another point where you can include

Nicole York:

client education cat talks about the emails that go out, and

Nicole York:

you'll want to be making sure you give people everything they

Nicole York:

need to know to make contact with you. You also have a

Nicole York:

consultation if you do those. Whether that is through zoom

Nicole York:

like Sam is doing in person, however you do the consultation.

Nicole York:

That's another point for client education. My friend Jay Mayhew,

Nicole York:

who has a really fantastic tutorial with probably to you,

Nicole York:

one of the things that she does for her clients, is she gives

Nicole York:

them a physical welcome packet. It's really beautifully made. It

Nicole York:

includes It's things like brochures on styling on makeup,

Nicole York:

if you're going to have any procedures done, like if you're

Nicole York:

going to go get a facial or a spray tan, or whatever it is

Nicole York:

manicure that someone might want to do. It lets them know, you

Nicole York:

know, if you're going to get a facial, do it this amount of

Nicole York:

time before the session, so your skin has a chance to heal, etc,

Nicole York:

etc. So really just dives into the weeds, it also gives them a

Nicole York:

breakdown of what the schedule looks like and what they can

Nicole York:

expect and the pricing again, so she's given them the pricing

Nicole York:

probably three times already, and then reinforces that with

Nicole York:

this physical packet. That then is their first hint of the

Nicole York:

physical quality that they're about to receive. It's basically

Nicole York:

her way for them to take something home with them. So

Nicole York:

then you have the shoot itself, and your ability to reinforce

Nicole York:

and educate during the shoot you have, like Kat was mentioning

Nicole York:

either a follow up email or a follow up text, where you can

Nicole York:

reinforce what the client needs to know, here's where you can

Nicole York:

find the pricing again, like she said, that was so brilliant. And

Nicole York:

then of course, if you do a sales session, you have that

Nicole York:

final test, so that you can make sure before you wheel out the

Nicole York:

the imagery, just want to make sure you know we've discussed

Nicole York:

this already, etc, etc, whatever. So that is just an

Nicole York:

example of how education and reinforcement repetition and

Nicole York:

client expectations can be managed throughout the whole

Nicole York:

process. There's obviously other things that we can do, like make

Nicole York:

that personal connection, make sure we're taking the time to be

Nicole York:

with the clients and be vulnerable. And also, I just

Nicole York:

wanted to bring up before we bring up the audience. So if you

Nicole York:

have something to share, now's a great time to start raising your

Nicole York:

hands. I just wanted to bring up something about the fact that

Nicole York:

he's structured his business in such a way that if he needs to

Nicole York:

give a full refund, to a client to make them happy, it is not

Nicole York:

going to break the bank, which means he is thinking long term

Nicole York:

about the fact that there will be times when this becomes a

Nicole York:

necessary thing in order to let somebody walk away from their

Nicole York:

experience with you happy. And of course, we hope it doesn't

Nicole York:

come to that. But if it does, then you have built the business

Nicole York:

in such a way that you have assured yourself, your client is

Nicole York:

going to be a happy client, even if it's at the very extremes.

Nicole York:

And that's a pretty big deal. So that is another thing that you

Nicole York:

can look at for being able to resolve those conflicts later on

Nicole York:

with your customers. If you hear me breathing hard, because on

Nicole York:

the big hit again. But hopefully, hopefully that made

Nicole York:

sense. And now I really want to ask the audience, y'all. What

Nicole York:

are some things that we can be doing as business people to

Nicole York:

avoid having confrontations with our clients later on down the

Nicole York:

road? So please, if you have those, raise your hands back is

Nicole York:

here. So you're definitely getting picked on? What do you

Nicole York:

do?

Unknown:

I wait for Erica because I want to hear she has

Unknown:

to say

Nicole York:

okay, let's have Erica. Hello, Miss lady. So glad

Nicole York:

you raised.

Erika:

That's funny. Um, I don't have much to add to the great

Erika:

things that have already been said, I think repeating over and

Erika:

over and over things that that are important. I, as I've

Erika:

mentioned before, my clients do tend to be very busy. So if I

Erika:

only do a pre booking consults, maybe 15% of the time, I mean,

Erika:

and I think that's even high. So I put a range of what my prices

Erika:

are, and then encourage them to schedule a consultation, but if

Erika:

they're okay with that range, they typically don't. And as

Erika:

I've also mentioned, I don't think my prices are extremely

Erika:

high. They're certainly not low, but they're, they're fair. So I

Erika:

feel a lot of times I've found that balance where they Okay, I

Erika:

see that, you know, it's this range, I'm okay with that.

Erika:

Rather than taking the time to schedule a consultation and get

Erika:

all of the details. Let's just book this and go with it. And

Erika:

then as Kat was saying, and some of the others were saying just

Erika:

kind of rude repeating that, okay, so if you include digital

Erika:

files in your collection, you know, you can expect this. So I,

Erika:

I will, you know, touch on that at our other meetings throughout

Erika:

the, you know, the process where I meet in person with them for a

Erika:

style consult, I don't go over pricing at that time, but I do

Erika:

touch on, okay, if you want an album, or if you want, and you

Erika:

know, and then refer back to the very first thing that I sent

Erika:

them, that will tell them the range of what they can expect to

Erika:

pay. So it kind of falls back into their court, like, they

Erika:

made the choice not to schedule a consultation. And they, you

Erika:

know, by default, they were okay with the range. So when they

Erika:

come to the sales session, they at least have a broad idea. And

Erika:

it's it, I have found that it has been pretty rare that I run

Erika:

into an issue. And normally, you know, if there is an issue, it's

Erika:

because they didn't, they didn't do their part to do their due

Erika:

diligence, that that's not something I say to them. But you

Erika:

know, I and then the other point I wanted to make was, it's

Erika:

always in writing, like everything that I have is in

Erika:

writing someplace that they can go back to, and I can go back

Erika:

to, if the breakdown is in my court, absolutely, I will make

Erika:

it right. But you know, nine times out of 10, if there is a

Erika:

miscommunication is because they they either didn't read

Erika:

something or something along those lines. And, you know, all

Erika:

in all, I really don't run into a whole lot of problems.

Nicole York:

Right on and I love that your decision making

Nicole York:

process on how you do that client education really comes

Nicole York:

down to understanding your client and what they need.

Nicole York:

Recognizing that being busy. And if you were to probably intrude

Nicole York:

yourself into their lives over and over and over again, to try

Nicole York:

to repeat that client education, it might be detrimental to them

Nicole York:

just to be able to get things done. So really important, I

Nicole York:

think, to remember making sure that this process includes

Nicole York:

understanding who your client is. Because, you know, I

Nicole York:

mentioned earlier, my friend Jay, she does very kind of high

Nicole York:

end portraiture, she often works with, with the wives of, let's

Nicole York:

say, football players, or, you know, things like that, and

Nicole York:

professional football players. And so there's a certain

Nicole York:

expectation for what that service is going to look like.

Nicole York:

It's expected to be very personal, very hands on very

Nicole York:

much, holding the hand through the entire experience, what

Nicole York:

they're expecting from her is what she is giving them. And

Nicole York:

that's because she understands what we want, in order to, you

Nicole York:

know, in order to have the experience that she wants to

Nicole York:

provide. And for us to be able to understand who our clients

Nicole York:

are, what they need from us, is a really great foundation for

Nicole York:

knowing how to build the rest of that experience. So I'm really

Nicole York:

glad you mentioned that, Eric, I think it's so super important. I

Nicole York:

noticed we have oh, I'm not going to pronounce your name

Nicole York:

right. Scylla. Can you tell me how to say your name, please?

Nicole York:

Oh, maybe she can't unmute. Okay, she might be doing

Nicole York:

something. So we'll wait. In the meantime, Becca, what do you do

Nicole York:

to build those foundations, so that our customers do not have

Nicole York:

conflicts later on.

Unknown:

So I missed most of the morning so far, I'm sorry. But

Unknown:

I'm seeing a theme here about customer education. And that is

Unknown:

really where that strength lies for me too. Like I shared my

Unknown:

embarrassing story yesterday about not very thoroughly

Unknown:

communicating with someone not having a very comprehensive

Unknown:

contract or anything. So that is where I really put a lot of my

Unknown:

effort from the get go. And since I do very custom work,

Unknown:

much like you do Nicole where everything has to be an

Unknown:

individual project and individual quote, I want to get

Unknown:

to know my clients a little bit I have a lot of questions for

Unknown:

them out what they're doing, you know about what we will be doing

Unknown:

as a team to create whatever art for them. And I really like to

Unknown:

explain myself throughout every step of the process. And I do

Unknown:

this even when I'm on set when I'm taking photographs like I'm

Unknown:

explaining what I'm doing with my lights kind of you know, I

Unknown:

explain where my head is at what I'm wanting and desiring from

Unknown:

the subject beyond just you know, stand here like so. So I

Unknown:

really want to be as communicative as possible for

Unknown:

every step. So from initial consultation that's asking

Unknown:

questions about, you know, like developing a basically a brief

Unknown:

for the project, and then also explaining what the timeline

Unknown:

looks like, what fees and you know, my rates look like every

Unknown:

single thing laid out in writing, so that there can't be

Unknown:

any miscommunication about that later. And everyone can go back

Unknown:

to refer to that later.

Nicole York:

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. I think the more we are

Nicole York:

communicative during the process, absolutely, the better

Nicole York:

the results will be. Okay. Hopefully, you are able to

Nicole York:

unmute now, I don't want to say your name. In case I budget to

Nicole York:

say like God, I hope that's right. Can you can you share

Nicole York:

with us now? No, it seems like not ability to unmute sissala

Nicole York:

says hello, thank you, Matt. Oh, I'm not sure what's wrong? I'm

Matt Stagliano:

not sure.

Nicole York:

Okay, well, let's definitely keep

Bassam Sabbagh:

it to us. So as to say, I hope she does get on.

Nicole York:

Yeah, me too. I'm going to see if I can, I don't

Nicole York:

even have the opportunity to ask her to unmute. So it, I don't

Nicole York:

know if it's stuck, or what is happening. We really want to

Nicole York:

hear from us this a lot. I hope we're able to get it to work.

Nicole York:

Whenever it does, just unmute yourself and go, and I will shut

Nicole York:

up. Okay. But I, I really wanted to touch on something that you

Nicole York:

mentioned, Becca, that, you know, during this process, being

Nicole York:

communicative, the whole time. And when we're talking about

Nicole York:

client expectations, and the fact that as businesses, we

Nicole York:

literally only exist to provide value, I think there is there is

Nicole York:

a rule that I have for myself, is if I have to say no to my

Nicole York:

client is a no but right. I want to be able to provide that

Nicole York:

value. And if there's something that they're asking for that I

Nicole York:

cannot do, I always try to amend that with something that can be

Nicole York:

done, either in its place, or that makes some kind of

Nicole York:

compromise, so that they're still getting closer to the

Nicole York:

thing that they want. And there is also another thing that if

Nicole York:

they're asking for something, it's a yes. And so I know there

Nicole York:

are a lot of photographers and we had this conversation early

Nicole York:

in this room, it's been a while there are a lot of photographers

Nicole York:

who are very hesitant to give RAW files or unretouched, JPEG

Nicole York:

files to people who are asking for them, I do not have this

Nicole York:

issue, I want your money. So if somebody contacts me, and

Nicole York:

they're like, and can I also get these files, I actually had a a

Nicole York:

customer who I did 10 images for him, retouch them, and then he

Nicole York:

asked me if he could get additional images. Without the

Nicole York:

retouching, he wanted to have a go at them himself. I have no

Nicole York:

problem with this. Give me your money. You're a happy customer.

Nicole York:

Now I have your money. So you know, I just let them know.

Nicole York:

Yeah, that's absolutely a possibility. But it will cost

Nicole York:

you that this much more, because now I lose creative control over

Nicole York:

the final output. So I need to be compensated for that. So

Nicole York:

keeping in mind, another way we can try to manage whether or not

Nicole York:

conflict happens. If a client is asking for something, we can

Nicole York:

say, no, but this is what I can do for you. I can I cannot lower

Nicole York:

the price. But I can offer you a payment plan. I can't give you

Nicole York:

the raw files. But I can give you quickly Batch Edit a JPG or

Nicole York:

you know, whatever. See where you can find those. No, but if

Nicole York:

you have to say no. And when it comes to a yes, you can always

Nicole York:

include a yes. And yes, I can give you this, and it's going to

Nicole York:

cost this much yes, I can do this for you. And this is the

Nicole York:

changes that it will have to make. If you can do that. It

Nicole York:

really goes a long way toward showing the client that you

Nicole York:

exist to do good things for them. And for them to be happy

Nicole York:

with what they get from you. And if when it comes to the question

Nicole York:

of raw files, ultimately, if I can make you happy and make more

Nicole York:

money for less work, that's the road I'm going down so just

Nicole York:

something to consider. So sissala Do we have you yet?

Unknown:

You do oh my god, I'm sorry. I'm driving. I guys so I

Unknown:

have probably missed a bunch of what you guys So forgive me if I

Unknown:

am repeating anything. But basically what I tend to do is

Unknown:

record concert is be of service and be compassionate. And

Unknown:

listen. I think it's photographers, we have a lot of

Unknown:

pride in our work, and oh no, this client doesn't like what

Unknown:

we're doing or Oh, no, they want something changed thoughts a

Unknown:

bit. But honestly, I think if you come from a point of

Unknown:

service, if you have a conversation, there is simple if

Unknown:

you try to put yourself in your clients shoes, just saw. And

Unknown:

especially if you do well in your pricing, where you say,

Unknown:

Hey, this is what you're you can expect to spend. Some people

Unknown:

spend less, some people spend more, and that's okay, I'm

Unknown:

expensive, I know that. Just be open about it. And as long as

Unknown:

you play with open cards, people are gonna play open with you as

Unknown:

well. Basically,

Nicole York:

yes, I love that, let's always make sure that we

Nicole York:

are not removing that aspect. I mean, of course, we talked

Nicole York:

about, you know, building frameworks, and those things can

Nicole York:

be relatively impersonal. But I love that you're reminding us

Nicole York:

that these are people. And if you talk to them, and learn

Nicole York:

about them and approach them with empathy, the results are

Nicole York:

always going to be better than they would have been otherwise.

Nicole York:

So I'm so glad you got the chance to share that. As we near

Nicole York:

the end, I want to make sure we have time to hear from Joshua.

Nicole York:

And then we'll try to wrap all of this up in a neat little bow.

Nicole York:

So that we have a really good picture of the steps that we can

Nicole York:

take in the beginning and during the process to avoid

Nicole York:

confrontations with our clients later on. So Joshua, would love

Nicole York:

to hear your thoughts.

Joshua:

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to come up and

Joshua:

speak. I haven't been in the room very long, but I caught

Joshua:

towards the end, which basically sounded like a conversation

Joshua:

about negotiation and a way that you can keep your clients happy.

Joshua:

And I think that one of the most important pieces of advice that

Joshua:

has ever been shared with me it was with was from my father

Joshua:

years ago. And that was that when you're negotiating, it's

Joshua:

always a matter of price versus terms. If they are trying to

Joshua:

change your terms, then you change the price. And if they're

Joshua:

trying to change the price, then you adjust the terms, the danger

Joshua:

that occurs when and I think why so many people are scared to

Joshua:

negotiate and and are not able to successfully is that when

Joshua:

somebody comes back to them with a price objection, they just

Joshua:

work on fixing the price, you know, which is basically just

Joshua:

giving a discount, versus negotiating a different term,

Joshua:

which can allow your client to get what they ultimately want.

Joshua:

And a lot of times can allow you to come out even further ahead

Joshua:

when it comes to your bottom line.

Nicole York:

Oh, that was so so good. Say it again for the

Nicole York:

people in the back. And if you do you have any fantastic

Nicole York:

examples that you might be able to give folks so that they can

Nicole York:

see how that might apply to their business?

Joshua:

Yeah, sure. So say for example, you know, one of your

Joshua:

packages is $1,000 for five hours, just to make it easy,

Joshua:

right? So that's $200 an hour. And somebody says, Well, you

Joshua:

know, unfortunately, my budget is only, you know, $800? Well,

Joshua:

unfortunately, you know, we don't have a package that that

Joshua:

covers that. But we could remove two hours of coverage. And we

Joshua:

could get to your budget of $800. And so now I'm basically

Joshua:

cutting out $400 worth of my labor to my time for a $200

Joshua:

discount. So I'm actually coming out ahead, they're getting you

Joshua:

know, the budget that they need. And I'm actually getting more of

Joshua:

my time back in that scenario, because they really want to work

Joshua:

with me.

Nicole York:

Yeah, fantastic. So that is exactly what the heart

Nicole York:

of what I was getting at when I talked about the no but and the

Nicole York:

yes and answers. Because we want our clients to know that we're

Nicole York:

here for them and want to be able to work with them. Sorry,

Nicole York:

I'm walking through the dead leaves. I'm trying to avoid them

Nicole York:

and hop and skip around and it really messes with my

Nicole York:

concentration. So I love putting it in those simple terms of if

Nicole York:

they want to negotiate on price, we can change the terms they

Nicole York:

want to negotiate on terms, we can alter the price that is

Nicole York:

exactly exactly exactly what I was talking about and to keep in

Nicole York:

mind. You know, you have ultimate flexibility there. And

Nicole York:

so it really does require you to know your process inside and out

Nicole York:

and to know where your time is spent and what your time costs.

Nicole York:

If you have not done the foundational groundwork for your

Nicole York:

business that way, so that you know, for every hour, I work,

Nicole York:

that doesn't just mean working with a client, it means creating

Nicole York:

marketing materials. That means answering emails, that means you

Nicole York:

know, the entire thing, keeping the books, anytime you are on

Nicole York:

the clock, for your business, your business needs to be making

Nicole York:

this much money, you really do need to understand that if

Nicole York:

you're going to be negotiating terms with someone so that you

Nicole York:

know, the difference that you are creating for yourself in

Nicole York:

price and time. So make sure that you have that kind of

Nicole York:

foundational knowledge. But I mean, that's so so important,

Nicole York:

Joshua, and I'm really, really glad that you brought that up. I

Nicole York:

hope people write that down. So Alright, y'all, we are about six

Nicole York:

minutes from the time we want to close. Oh, Becca, was that, uh,

Nicole York:

that you?

Unknown:

Yeah, just just a continuation of that thought

Unknown:

real quick. And I And sorry, my brain doesn't work. You guys

Unknown:

know this. But essentially, like in that communication process,

Unknown:

and continuing those, you know, no buts, and yes, ands and

Unknown:

negotiations. But even from the beginning, I think a really

Unknown:

important thing to remember here is to give kind of a next step,

Unknown:

like a next action to your clients in those communications.

Unknown:

So there's no just dead stop, when you are communicating and

Unknown:

having those kinds of conversations. So again, that

Unknown:

everything is very, very clear. So making sure you're really

Unknown:

laying out that roadmap, like if someone says, you know, can you

Unknown:

shoot a portrait of me? And my husband? Yes, is not a good

Unknown:

answer. Yes. And again, as you explained, so I just think

Unknown:

thinking of it as showing them what the next action is, can be

Unknown:

a good way of looking at as well. That's all.

Nicole York:

Yeah, absolutely. And making sure that you're

Nicole York:

asking for that continued conversation. You know, let me

Nicole York:

know what you think about this. Or, if you're ready to move

Nicole York:

forward, I can do this or I mean, there's, there's a lot of

Nicole York:

ways that you can ask them to continue to engage, so that it

Nicole York:

doesn't end up just at a full stop. Really, really important

Nicole York:

to remember. So yeah, here we are, guys, toward the end of the

Nicole York:

hour, I want to make sure we have some time for final

Nicole York:

thoughts. Now. We've had the chance to hear one another to

Nicole York:

listen to what each other's processes sound like. And the

Nicole York:

kinds of things that other business owners are building

Nicole York:

into their process, to make sure that we're accounting for

Nicole York:

conflict or confrontation down the road, we know that we can do

Nicole York:

all of these great things to make our clients happy. So what

Nicole York:

are final thoughts from folks who are on the panel today, as

Nicole York:

it relates to the topic?

Matt Stagliano:

I think one of the things that is most

Matt Stagliano:

important to me in all of this conflict and confrontation is

Matt Stagliano:

self assuredness and confidence in what you've built. If it's

Matt Stagliano:

easy for you to relay what it is that you do as a business, then

Matt Stagliano:

getting into any of these conversations really shouldn't

Matt Stagliano:

be that hard. Because all you're doing is explaining more about

Matt Stagliano:

your business. If you feel weak in an area, you don't feel good

Matt Stagliano:

about pricing, or you don't feel good about your products, work

Matt Stagliano:

on that, build that confidence up. Because when you have that

Matt Stagliano:

internal self confidence in you, you know your business inside

Matt Stagliano:

and out, then it's very, very easy for you to find those

Matt Stagliano:

solutions, those Yes, ands, and give people even better service.

Matt Stagliano:

But if you're always on your heels, and always defensive or

Matt Stagliano:

not sure what it is that you can do for them, then that's always

Matt Stagliano:

going to put you in in a deficient position. So just make

Matt Stagliano:

sure that you know, you're very, very confident in what it is

Matt Stagliano:

that you're providing, and then lead with service, and you'll

Matt Stagliano:

avoid 99% of the conflicts and confrontations.

Unknown:

So good. So, so good.

Nicole York:

Anybody else have any other final thoughts?

Joshua:

I think there's there's two things that generally

Joshua:

prevent people from having a from the

Nicole York:

drop down for us there. Sorry.

Joshua:

I think there's two things that prevent us from

Joshua:

having success, successful negotiations, especially in the

Joshua:

artistic world. And that first number one is absolutely ego.

Joshua:

And number two is often forcing ourselves to turn a blind eye to

Joshua:

the business side of what we do, and realizing that regardless of

Joshua:

whether you believe you're creating art or you're or you're

Joshua:

providing a service to customers, that you have to know

Joshua:

your business and you have to you have to know your business

Joshua:

inside now in order to be comfortable enough to be

Joshua:

successful in negotiations. And the ego prevents us from getting

Joshua:

to successful negotiations because it straight up prevents

Joshua:

us from understanding that. That other other people value

Joshua:

different things in different ways. And that we can make them

Joshua:

happy and also serve ourselves at the same time. And it's not

Joshua:

just Well, I said it's worth $10,000. So it's worth $10,000.

Joshua:

Short of, you know, you just being a sculptor where people

Joshua:

just happen to buy your pieces that they find in museums or in

Joshua:

art exhibits, and whatnot, so so we have to get out of our own

Joshua:

ways, let our ego get cleared out. And, and make sure that we

Joshua:

actually know our, our numbers and our business inside and out.

Joshua:

So we can be comfortable with those opportunities, and again,

Joshua:

come out ahead in those situations, rather than saying,

Joshua:

These are my prices, I don't negotiate. I think so many

Joshua:

people leave so much opportunity on the table, so much money on

Joshua:

the table, because they're scared to truly learn their

Joshua:

business, and be willing to negotiate and, and get everybody

Joshua:

to a great point themselves and their, their clients.

Nicole York:

I agree with you so much. And absolutely. And I love

Nicole York:

the fact that we've we've tied so many things into this

Nicole York:

conversation from our own personal confidence,

Nicole York:

understanding our business and what we've built, understanding

Nicole York:

that you know, whether or not we believe, which I love the fact

Nicole York:

that you said that, Josh, when I've mentioned this before,

Nicole York:

whether or not you believe you're creating an art, or

Nicole York:

you're supplying goods and services, whether whichever of

Nicole York:

those things you're doing, you still exist to provide value,

Nicole York:

that art gives value to somebody's life, the service

Nicole York:

that you offer gives value to somebody's life. And taking some

Nicole York:

of the ego out of that equation really is going to make a huge

Nicole York:

difference. And I know, oftentimes, when photographers

Nicole York:

are leaving money on the table, when it comes to things like

Nicole York:

allowing clients access to raw files, or unretouched files, a

Nicole York:

lot of times it is exactly what Matt mentioned, as well, it's

Nicole York:

it's that fear, it's the oh, what happens if somebody sees

Nicole York:

it? You mean, what happens if somebody hears about a client

Nicole York:

who just is really effing thrilled with the service that

Nicole York:

they got from you, that you cared about what they had to

Nicole York:

say, and you want it to meet their needs. I mean, that's a

Nicole York:

pretty big deal. So there's a lot that goes into making sure

Nicole York:

that we understand and have confidence in our ability to

Nicole York:

produce in the business that we've built in a value that that

Nicole York:

adds to somebody's life. And making decisions from that place

Nicole York:

of service, like you said, map is really, really never going to

Nicole York:

lead us down the wrong path. So

Nicole York:

today, fantastic conversation, y'all. This has been such a good

Nicole York:

one, so many great insights into the way that we can build our

Nicole York:

businesses, structure, our client journey, do all of these

Nicole York:

things, keeping in mind that not only is it going to help us

Nicole York:

avoid those confrontations and conflicts that we may have with

Nicole York:

our customers down the road. But it also helps us create the kind

Nicole York:

of customer who is really going to become an advocate for our

Nicole York:

business later on. Because we've built an experience that they're

Nicole York:

happy with, we've proved to them that we care about serving them

Nicole York:

and solving their problems, and making the making sure that they

Nicole York:

walk away absolutely thrilled with what they've gotten. And

Nicole York:

those are the kind of clients who refer people who can explain

Nicole York:

the experience to other people in a way that makes it

Nicole York:

accessible to them, it just becomes a win all the way

Nicole York:

around. And of course, the result is less likely to have

Nicole York:

confrontations or conflicts with the client, when we educate

Nicole York:

them, we manage those expectations. And then we repeat

Nicole York:

that process several times throughout the journey so that

Nicole York:

everything is always clear and understandable. And driven by

Nicole York:

value. So thank you to everybody who was here today and

Nicole York:

participated in this conversation. So much good

Nicole York:

stuff, I hope people were paying attention. If you want to hear

Nicole York:

more of this head up to the top, we have the Facebook group that

Nicole York:

you can come and join. Also, I have turned on replays, which

Nicole York:

means if you head to the artists forge the club, or even if you

Nicole York:

just run to my page, or the I I'm not sure if it shows up that

Nicole York:

way for the other moderators, but because I'm the creator, it

Nicole York:

might if you if you go to my page on clubhouse and scroll to

Nicole York:

the bottom, you will be able to see for the previous two days I

Nicole York:

have turned replays on. So access to all of our talks is

Nicole York:

there. It's a pretty cool feature. You can even use the

Nicole York:

skip ahead button like if you always love hearing what Matt

Nicole York:

has to say you could actually skip in that conversation too

Nicole York:

when he's speaking so that you can you know, get great advice

Nicole York:

from him. So it's it's a pretty cool feature. I would encourage

Nicole York:

you guys to go check it out. If you are not already members of

Nicole York:

the club. Come on and join us let folks know that we're here.

Nicole York:

We're here five days a week guys for an hour every morning just

Nicole York:

providing as much value as we can to try to bolster and build

Nicole York:

up the artistic community. We really want to provide a bridge

Nicole York:

between the theory and The practice of art and being the

Nicole York:

kind of people who create art. So we are that bridge between

Nicole York:

technique and art. And in between is a whole lot of space

Nicole York:

that doesn't always get covered in online education for the art

Nicole York:

community. So we love having you guys here. Hope we provided some

Nicole York:

value for you this morning. And we hope you will join us tonight

Nicole York:

in the Facebook group. We are going live with the moderators,

Nicole York:

we are going to talk a little bit about the conversation this

Nicole York:

week, break some things down, we're also going to do some

Nicole York:

review of imagery that has been shared in the group do some

Nicole York:

breakdowns there. So we continuing on in that search for

Nicole York:

better better visual literacy as artists. So we hope you'll come

Nicole York:

and hang out with us, you guys being there and chatting with us

Nicole York:

and sharing your thoughts as the whole joy of the process. So

Nicole York:

hopefully you'll join us for that. And in the meantime, go

Nicole York:

make something amazing. We'll see you bright and early

Nicole York:

tomorrow morning at 7am Mountain Standard Time that sucks for the

Nicole York:

West Coast in line for the East Coast. Have a great day guys.

Matt Stagliano:

Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse

Matt Stagliano:

discussion moderated by all of us at the artist Forge. We hope

Matt Stagliano:

you found the information useful and that it helps you gain a

Matt Stagliano:

little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft. For more

Matt Stagliano:

episodes, please join us each weekday on clubhouse or visit

Matt Stagliano:

the artists forged.com and go make something incredible

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About the Podcast

Morning Walk with The Artist's Forge
How to Critique Art
Learn how mindset, creativity, and visual literacy will help you think like an artist so you can create work you love and build a career that matters; bridging the gap between technique and art.

About your host

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Nicole York