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Published on:

28th Feb 2022

How to Price Your Art

Pricing artwork is a constant struggle for artists. In this discussion as part of The Artist's Forge MBA, you'll hear several different artists explain their pricing processes and break down how they sell their art to run profitable businesses.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Methods for meeting your bottom line as part of every sale
  • How to think of overhead costs and markups
  • How to value the product
  • Why consistency across product lines is important
  • How to think about structuring the sale

If you want to learn more about THIS TOPIC you can find it here: (replace with links to previous episode topic or related episode)

Learn more about how to think like an artist on The Artist's Forge, and join our growing community of artists on Facebook.

Want to know more about the hosts?

Nicole York

Matt Stagliano

Cat Ford-Coates

Bassam Sabbagh

Bekka Bjorke

Transcript
Matt Stagliano:

Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being

Matt Stagliano:

part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who

Matt Stagliano:

help each other think like an artist. By discussing creativity

Matt Stagliano:

as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone

Matt Stagliano:

has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need

Matt Stagliano:

some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What

Matt Stagliano:

you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily

Matt Stagliano:

discussions on the clubhouse app. If you like what you hear,

Matt Stagliano:

I encourage you to join our private Facebook group, or visit

Matt Stagliano:

us on the web at the artist forge COMM Now on to the show.

Nicole York:

Welcome to morning walk with the artists board. I'm

Nicole York:

your host, Nicole York. And today we are talking about

Nicole York:

pricing our products. How do we even begin to start that

Nicole York:

process? We know we need to sell things to people in order to

Nicole York:

make the money we need to make to run a business and live our

Nicole York:

lives. But how do we come to those numbers? How do we figure

Nicole York:

out what to charge for a print or a service or a piece of art?

Nicole York:

Is it some random number we just kind of generate and then see

Nicole York:

how things pan out? Or is there actually some kind of formula,

Nicole York:

we can figure out to look at how I should be pricing my products.

Nicole York:

We get a lot of questions from folks like this, as artists in

Nicole York:

almost every space we inhabit as artists, whether that's, you

Nicole York:

know, online forums or through email, or just in discussions on

Nicole York:

places like Facebook, people are always confused about how we

Nicole York:

should price our products in order not only to make a profit,

Nicole York:

but for them to sell. Because remember, we're bringing all of

Nicole York:

those fantastic money blocks and biases and everything along with

Nicole York:

us. And sometimes that sounds like nobody will pay this price

Nicole York:

for that. And sometimes that sounds like you know, if I want

Nicole York:

to make money it has to be priced at this particular price.

Nicole York:

So it's a good question, and one we're going to dig into today as

Nicole York:

we contemplate pricing. If you have not yet listened to the

Nicole York:

discussion about how you price your business overall, then I

Nicole York:

need you to head back and listen to that one. At some point.

Nicole York:

There's a really fantastic information in there and a lot

Nicole York:

of really good insight into what steps people should take in

Nicole York:

order to figure out what they need to charge. But how does

Nicole York:

that translate to products, we took our yearly income as an

Nicole York:

individual what our salary needs to be, we took what our business

Nicole York:

income needs to be in order to function, we smushed those two

Nicole York:

numbers together, we divided them by the number of days, we

Nicole York:

can work per year, and the number of sales we thought we

Nicole York:

could potentially make. So if we're photographers, and we can

Nicole York:

shoot two days a week, that's two days a week that we could be

Nicole York:

potentially earning money that needs to pay for all the rest of

Nicole York:

our time. So how does that actually translate to products?

Nicole York:

I have three business owners here with me today, three

Nicole York:

portrait photographers here with me and I want to hear from you

Nicole York:

guys. How do people work their way through this problem? We

Nicole York:

know I need to earn 50,000 My business needs to earn 70,000

Nicole York:

How does that translate into the actual products that we sell?

Nicole York:

How do you guys figure that out?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Um, hi. So when I first started my studio, which

Cat Ford-Coates:

I just recently realized, like, I think two days ago, that will

Cat Ford-Coates:

be 10 years in March. And now I'm like super jazzed about

Cat Ford-Coates:

that. I came in from food and Bev right, and our typical menu,

Cat Ford-Coates:

pricing in the bar and the restaurant world was typically

Cat Ford-Coates:

you know, four times. So if it costs $3 to make then it was $12

Cat Ford-Coates:

on the menu. And so that's how I started and I was like, Man

Cat Ford-Coates:

prints are really cheap. I could do this, you know, and like an

Cat Ford-Coates:

eight by 10 I could sell it for $25 And yeah, that seems great.

Cat Ford-Coates:

And you know, as you move through business and you realize

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, Oh, that's not that's not gonna work. Um There are other

Cat Ford-Coates:

methodologies to like I spoke with an artists a couple of

Cat Ford-Coates:

months ago and I asked her how she priced her work. And she's a

Cat Ford-Coates:

painter and she paints with lipstick, and super cool like

Cat Ford-Coates:

her name is lipstick Lex. If you guys want to check her out on

Cat Ford-Coates:

Instagram, she's super cool lady. But she prices her work by

Cat Ford-Coates:

the square inch. And then she has like three different tiers

Cat Ford-Coates:

of medium that she paints on that you can choose from like

Cat Ford-Coates:

low mid high grade quality, whatever. And then it's price

Cat Ford-Coates:

from the square inch beyond that point. And now I typically start

Cat Ford-Coates:

my my formula for my business at like a 10%. So if it cost me $3

Cat Ford-Coates:

To make then okay, that's gonna be times 10 is the bare minimum

Cat Ford-Coates:

that I would charge for it. But then you start thinking about

Cat Ford-Coates:

those different mediums and say you have prints, but you also

Cat Ford-Coates:

have other types of art that you want to offer that you print

Cat Ford-Coates:

your photos on. And then it's like, oh, God, do I have to

Cat Ford-Coates:

have, you know, if I have acrylic, metal and canvas, do I

Cat Ford-Coates:

have to have three different prices for those. And my typical

Cat Ford-Coates:

advice for my mentees is, nope, keep it really simple. So if you

Cat Ford-Coates:

have for your ala carte menu, mounted prints, acrylic, Canvas,

Cat Ford-Coates:

and metal, then take the most expensive of those pieces, and

Cat Ford-Coates:

use that as your baseline for your formula of that 10%. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

that's what all of them costs and they can choose. And that

Cat Ford-Coates:

system has worked really well for me in defining that artwork.

Cat Ford-Coates:

And you can you know that 10% of that most expensive piece gives

Cat Ford-Coates:

you wiggle room so that you can negotiate in the sales room to

Cat Ford-Coates:

have those pull through items. But that's a different

Cat Ford-Coates:

conversation altogether. But yeah, like in portrait world and

Cat Ford-Coates:

my world with this specific business model, having that 10%

Cat Ford-Coates:

As the guideline really tends to work out in the wash.

Nicole York:

That's super interesting cat. So when you're

Nicole York:

doing that, do you have a specific number of prints or

Nicole York:

something that you need to hit? Like? How do you make sure that

Nicole York:

your bottom line is covered

Cat Ford-Coates:

per client? Well, the first way I figured

Cat Ford-Coates:

out how to do that is figuring out what my breakeven point was,

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, if I knew that I had to shoot days a week. And you know,

Cat Ford-Coates:

at those eight shoots, what do I need to make to meet my

Cat Ford-Coates:

overhead, including any kind of baseline salary? Guess what my

Cat Ford-Coates:

session fee then turned into. So that breakeven point was hit.

Cat Ford-Coates:

And I was meeting that mark, as long as that was my target. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

then any sales that were made on the back end of that were really

Cat Ford-Coates:

where the investment into the business came from. Right.

Cat Ford-Coates:

That's where I could finally start investing into the

Cat Ford-Coates:

business and growing my craft and education and workshops, and

Cat Ford-Coates:

all of those things. But once you figure out what that

Cat Ford-Coates:

breakeven point is, that becomes your session fee. And you can

Cat Ford-Coates:

organize that any way you want. Right, maybe if that feels

Cat Ford-Coates:

really high to you, say your session fee has, it has to be

Cat Ford-Coates:

650. That was my breakeven point. And I was like, man, 650

Cat Ford-Coates:

seems like an awful lot to not get anything. I said, Okay,

Cat Ford-Coates:

well, then I'll make 300 of that, an image credit, and they

Cat Ford-Coates:

can apply that toward their purchase. So the session fee is

Cat Ford-Coates:

350. And then they have $300 image credit. So I based my, my

Cat Ford-Coates:

per image all a cart started at $300. So that meant that they

Cat Ford-Coates:

could book with me and still walk away with something, it

Cat Ford-Coates:

made the barrier to entry a little higher than other

Cat Ford-Coates:

photographers in the area. But it meant that they can trust

Cat Ford-Coates:

that they could invest with me in a session and still walk away

Cat Ford-Coates:

with something. And that gave me the confidence that I needed to

Cat Ford-Coates:

be like, Look, if you don't want to buy anything else, you don't

Cat Ford-Coates:

have to pay period. I love

Nicole York:

that. I love that so much. Also, because what

Nicole York:

you're doing is you're you're starting off at a place where

Nicole York:

people know, like, yeah, they're there are going to have to

Nicole York:

invest to work with you. Like just to work with you. And that

Nicole York:

is a really great mindset to start from because it gives them

Nicole York:

the foundation for everything that's about to happen next. And

Nicole York:

then like you said, having that safety involved, and then making

Nicole York:

sure that they're they're going to have something and everything

Nicole York:

else is profit like that is a really great way to have that

Nicole York:

confident, like and comfort in your business knowing that it's

Nicole York:

going to be taken care of as long as people book with you.

Nicole York:

And then you can put your effort into making sure people book the

Nicole York:

right you know, you get the right amount of sessions per

Nicole York:

week or month or whatever. Rather than stressing on I have

Nicole York:

to make this sale in order to sustain myself and then all of a

Nicole York:

sudden, there's a bunch of

Cat Ford-Coates:

well, and being able to disconnect from that

Cat Ford-Coates:

sale makes that fail a lot easier. Once you put the

Cat Ford-Coates:

pressure on having to make a sale to meet that goal and oh my

Cat Ford-Coates:

god, we're all gonna die. Guess what doesn't happen. When you

Cat Ford-Coates:

feel that way. When you're emotionally attached to the

Cat Ford-Coates:

money of the thing, right? Then all of a sudden you are pushing

Cat Ford-Coates:

it away from you. So instead of just being available for it, and

Cat Ford-Coates:

having that money become the byproduct of your process.

Cat Ford-Coates:

That's really where the rubber meets the road, right like so.

Cat Ford-Coates:

You can just say Like this is how much it costs, you're

Cat Ford-Coates:

eliminating risk. Right? Like, okay, look, if you want my work,

Cat Ford-Coates:

that's great, you are going to have to pay for it. But how

Cat Ford-Coates:

about this, I won't make you pay for it upfront. How about, we

Cat Ford-Coates:

have this like baseline like this is, this is how much it

Cat Ford-Coates:

cost to work with me, you can apply that and to a single

Cat Ford-Coates:

image, if that's what you want. And then you can walk away,

Cat Ford-Coates:

you're like, know what, this is all I can afford. Thank you so

Cat Ford-Coates:

much, or I just, I don't love this, this really could have

Cat Ford-Coates:

been a lot better. I didn't like my makeup, or my wardrobe was

Cat Ford-Coates:

weird, or you're a shitty photographer, right? And, okay,

Cat Ford-Coates:

cool. You're taking that risk away by saying like, you don't

Cat Ford-Coates:

have to buy anything else if you don't want to. But if you want

Cat Ford-Coates:

to, this is how much it is. And I'm taking my desperation away

Cat Ford-Coates:

from the attachment of them having to buy more, because all

Cat Ford-Coates:

of my net is covered in that session fee. So everything else

Cat Ford-Coates:

is I had so much fun with you wasn't this wonderful? Here's

Cat Ford-Coates:

all of your beautiful imagery. What would you like today? Yep,

Nicole York:

I love it. I love that. Oh, right. So that's a

Nicole York:

really fantastic way that we can begin looking at how do we start

Nicole York:

pricing our product. And in tax case, beginning with making sure

Nicole York:

that the bottom line is covered by the session fee, and then

Nicole York:

recognizing that the session fee may be a little bit high for

Nicole York:

target market clients. And also, there's a little bit of risk

Nicole York:

involved in the in the session fee like that, because you are

Nicole York:

not necessarily walking away with something. So adding a

Nicole York:

print credit then becomes a really cool way to have your

Nicole York:

clients feel like they're safe, you know that you're safe,

Nicole York:

because your operating expenses are all covered. And all of a

Nicole York:

sudden, that takes the pressure off the sale and then using that

Nicole York:

10%. So whatever it costs to make the thing times 10 is the

Nicole York:

bottom line of where she's pricing all of her goodies. And

Nicole York:

then cat before I kind of let you off the hook for a second,

Nicole York:

if you have kind of high end or luxury or more expensive

Nicole York:

products. Is there any? Is there any system you use to kind of

Nicole York:

price those things out? Above and beyond what the kind of

Nicole York:

minimum. Um,

Cat Ford-Coates:

I always still use that 10% marker. But if

Cat Ford-Coates:

it's, say the cost on like, graph, he is a great example.

Cat Ford-Coates:

Because their products tend to be a little more expensive than

Cat Ford-Coates:

most of the the photo houses, at least in the US. Right? And but

Cat Ford-Coates:

I still want to make sure that I'm hitting that like 10% Mark,

Cat Ford-Coates:

but I look at the profit line, the actual number and say, Okay,

Cat Ford-Coates:

if a 24 by 36 is going to cost me $100 At Miller's. And a 24 by

Cat Ford-Coates:

36. With this other provider, right is now $300. What is it

Cat Ford-Coates:

that makes it different? Like how can I sell that? And is it

Cat Ford-Coates:

worth that to me? Is that valuable for me? And if I can

Cat Ford-Coates:

now price that $300 product, because of all of the added

Cat Ford-Coates:

value of how it's created at maybe 20 times instead of 10?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Right? Then Ooh, that makes it even more like out of touch for

Cat Ford-Coates:

people. Right? But there are going to be some people that are

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, Oh, hell yes. Like that high gloss or super fine Weaver,

Cat Ford-Coates:

whatever. If that if I can make the number value of the profit,

Cat Ford-Coates:

wider and more vast for the business to take in, then yeah,

Cat Ford-Coates:

of course I'm gonna offer it. And I might even go beyond that

Cat Ford-Coates:

10% line? Because I really believe in it that much. And I

Cat Ford-Coates:

want to offer it.

Nicole York:

Sure. And then of course, there's certainly some,

Nicole York:

excuse me, there's certainly some kind of status attached

Nicole York:

psychologically, when we see a product that's priced high, and

Nicole York:

we look at it and we're like that must be really fancy. And

Nicole York:

for some people, that is part of the emotional. The emotional

Nicole York:

need, that they're getting met by working with certain

Nicole York:

photographers or buying from certain artists is having

Nicole York:

actually spent a certain amount because to them, that is this

Nicole York:

emotional exchange of value. And that makes the piece even more

Nicole York:

important. I spent this much on it. It means a lot like there's

Nicole York:

a transactional thing there not just the physical transaction of

Nicole York:

the cash but the mental emotional transaction that says,

Nicole York:

you know, this is a thing of status and that makes me feel

Nicole York:

important that helps me You know, feel comfortable and

Nicole York:

confident in what I've done. And so for those folks having

Nicole York:

products like that actually makes it

Cat Ford-Coates:

well, and there's the status piece. But

Cat Ford-Coates:

there's also, you know, the flip side of that, too. Maybe you

Cat Ford-Coates:

have products that if your standard line is 10%, but you

Cat Ford-Coates:

really want to carry it, but to stay inside what your market

Cat Ford-Coates:

will bear quote, unquote, though I don't love the market will

Cat Ford-Coates:

bear the market will bear what I tell it to bear. But I really

Cat Ford-Coates:

want to offer it and I want to keep it in line. Just reach

Cat Ford-Coates:

reachable for the clients that I typically work with every day, I

Cat Ford-Coates:

might say, allow myself to take something to a 30% markup, just

Cat Ford-Coates:

because I want to offer it, but make sure that it's large enough

Cat Ford-Coates:

of a piece to where that profit is in line with my 10% pieces,

Cat Ford-Coates:

right. So an example of that might be a larger piece, right?

Cat Ford-Coates:

So where my profit at 30% is still three grand. But my profit

Cat Ford-Coates:

on my 10% pieces, on the larger scale of things, is also three

Cat Ford-Coates:

grand. So the profit itself is the same. So it makes it in line

Cat Ford-Coates:

with my offerings. And just brings another layer of added

Cat Ford-Coates:

value. Because the profit margin itself is worth it to me, if it

Cat Ford-Coates:

were at a smaller size that 30% Probably wouldn't be right,

Cat Ford-Coates:

because that profit might only be $100, or $200. In which case,

Cat Ford-Coates:

it's not really that math doesn't pan out, it's not worth

Cat Ford-Coates:

it to me to have my studio manager work on something and

Cat Ford-Coates:

shipping and packaging and doing all of the things but at a three

Cat Ford-Coates:

grand markup. Yeah, that's worth it. I'm totally down. So you

Cat Ford-Coates:

have to be adaptable to things, if something is in line with

Cat Ford-Coates:

your business model. And what it is that you have to offer from

Cat Ford-Coates:

an artwork standpoint, and the math has to make sense.

Nicole York:

I'm really glad that you said that, actually.

Nicole York:

Because one of the things that people tend to lose sight of

Nicole York:

when they look at okay, what products are am I going to offer

Nicole York:

is they forget those overhead costs that go into offering the

Nicole York:

product. I know we talked about that a little bit before and I

Nicole York:

know, you know, it's one thing if I'm getting a print in, and

Nicole York:

then somebody who's just coming and picking it up. And if I'm

Nicole York:

not matting it, and I'm not framing it, and I'm not doing

Nicole York:

all of these other things to it myself, or having my studio

Nicole York:

manager do it, then it's a, it's a relatively simple transaction

Nicole York:

with not a lot of overhead. But if I'm adding, if I'm framing,

Nicole York:

if I'm hanging, if I'm shipping, then there's all of this

Nicole York:

additional cost involved in selling that particular product,

Nicole York:

whether that is happening every time. So if you are an artist

Nicole York:

who is shipping off your work all across the country, then you

Nicole York:

know that the cost of shipping and the cost of packaging and

Nicole York:

the time that it's going to take you not only to package that

Nicole York:

product, but to get it and to ship it all needs to go into

Nicole York:

that price. Otherwise, you're eating into your margins with

Nicole York:

every hour of extra work you put into the delivery of that print

Nicole York:

or that painting or you know, piece of ceramic or whatever it

Nicole York:

is that you're sending, those things need to be included, that

Nicole York:

they may be included in your standard costs and your standard

Nicole York:

overhead or like the sub mentioned, they may be a

Nicole York:

variable cost if you only ever rarely shipped something, then

Nicole York:

you may be willing to add that to your variable costs, you

Nicole York:

might eat that based on the kind of sales that you make, or you

Nicole York:

may need to be able to include that if somebody is out of state

Nicole York:

or if they're wherever and you know, you have to let them know

Nicole York:

the price changes but you need to know those things and if you

Nicole York:

have worked out the math and you should have a good idea of what

Nicole York:

hourly rates like what your hourly rate is what that's

Nicole York:

costing you, that then goes into the price and if you decide to

Nicole York:

eat that or if you decide to add that into the price of the

Nicole York:

product depending on you know what your business model looks

Nicole York:

like that's still a really important thing to know. Because

Nicole York:

you might think I've priced my product at this and that's a

Nicole York:

really high margin like this is great but then you're spending

Nicole York:

so much time preparing and shipping and etc your product

Nicole York:

that all of a sudden you've eaten the profit your profit

Cat Ford-Coates:

margins Yeah, exactly right out the window.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Hey guys, I want to jump in simply because I may

Bassam Sabbagh:

have to leave in the next five to 10 minutes. There's so much

Bassam Sabbagh:

good stuff got that you that you shared and I'm not gonna I'm I'm

Bassam Sabbagh:

kind of on board with everything, everything you said.

Bassam Sabbagh:

And you're pointed to the fact that even with certain rules

Bassam Sabbagh:

that we put for ourselves, they may not necessarily apply all

Bassam Sabbagh:

the time and we have to kind of, you know, be malleable and given

Bassam Sabbagh:

this situation, play with it but have bounced it against

Bassam Sabbagh:

something that would tell us whether it makes sense or not,

Bassam Sabbagh:

you know, like the your example of profit, the dollar value of

Bassam Sabbagh:

the profit as opposed to the percentage. But I do want to

Bassam Sabbagh:

emphasize that one of the main one of the most important thing

Bassam Sabbagh:

in pricing either services or products is not only simplicity

Bassam Sabbagh:

for the client and for yourself, but consistency in what you do.

Bassam Sabbagh:

How often do we see or do I see people sharing their price

Bassam Sabbagh:

lists, and they have this, this approach that you kind of read

Bassam Sabbagh:

the top part of that page, and then you get to the bottom, and

Bassam Sabbagh:

some of the stuff they do in terms of pricing, negates and

Bassam Sabbagh:

takes value away from what they just presented on the top of the

Bassam Sabbagh:

page. So consistency in how you price these things is extremely

Bassam Sabbagh:

important. And you mentioned something Nicole that I think we

Bassam Sabbagh:

all need to decide up front is how do we want to value our

Bassam Sabbagh:

thing, right? So your example of by the square inch is a good

Bassam Sabbagh:

example. Right? Depending on what type of photography or art

Bassam Sabbagh:

we do, we have a choice of how we value the thing, we sell the

Bassam Sabbagh:

the SKU, you know, the, the the unit itself, right? So you can

Bassam Sabbagh:

value your product by the image, right, you can say my image is

Bassam Sabbagh:

worth $200, or $300, no matter what it is, that's the value of

Bassam Sabbagh:

my service, and then base your whole pricing based on that. And

Bassam Sabbagh:

I don't mean literally exactly based on that, but at least it

Bassam Sabbagh:

has to make sense within that and not break that. Not negate

Bassam Sabbagh:

that and take value away from that by pricing other things

Bassam Sabbagh:

differently, right. Unless it makes sense. In one specific

Bassam Sabbagh:

case, you can price the work by hour. So your common denominator

Bassam Sabbagh:

could be by hour or by day or by whatever it is. So to me, it's

Bassam Sabbagh:

important to have that in mind and say, in general, my pricing

Bassam Sabbagh:

is based on $200 an image. So whatever packages I put

Bassam Sabbagh:

together, they can they can take away value from that they still

Bassam Sabbagh:

have to make sense. So when it comes to products, for example,

Bassam Sabbagh:

like a wall art, right, so if if my if my image is worth $300,

Bassam Sabbagh:

and I apply cat's rule of 10%, which by the way is amazing,

Bassam Sabbagh:

it's very good. It's a very good number, right? It may not make

Bassam Sabbagh:

sense, it may not make sense, because if I'm charging a big

Bassam Sabbagh:

enlargement, I'm charging 500 bucks, but my image itself is

Bassam Sabbagh:

worth 300. That takes away value. And maybe I should be

Bassam Sabbagh:

charging 800 bucks for that. And that may be a 20 times markup

Bassam Sabbagh:

from the cost. So it's all I'm trying to say is that once you

Bassam Sabbagh:

decide what your common denominator is, which is the

Bassam Sabbagh:

square inch in the case, you you did and you put the right value

Bassam Sabbagh:

on it, it's a good way to use that as a check and balance does

Bassam Sabbagh:

it make sense? The other thing, and I'll finish right after

Bassam Sabbagh:

that. The other thing that's important to remember is that,

Bassam Sabbagh:

that 10%, or 20%, or whatever it is that you decide in terms of

Bassam Sabbagh:

markup may work well at higher numbers. But it also has to make

Bassam Sabbagh:

it you know it, you can't apply it in every case. Because if

Bassam Sabbagh:

you're a little print, that's eight by 10 cost you $2.50 to

Bassam Sabbagh:

print and you multiply that by 10. Now it's 25 bucks. And the

Bassam Sabbagh:

customers can say well, how come you're charging 250 foot, you

Bassam Sabbagh:

know, so on and so but my point is, you have to do those checks

Bassam Sabbagh:

and balances, make sure it makes sense. And sometimes you really

Bassam Sabbagh:

have to look at the value is bringing to the customers, you

Bassam Sabbagh:

talked about covering your costs. For example, if you if

Bassam Sabbagh:

your service is to go hang wall art and people's homes, there's

Bassam Sabbagh:

the cost related to that, which may be an hour and some gas and

Bassam Sabbagh:

whatever it is right, but maybe the value to the customer. So

Bassam Sabbagh:

maybe that's a cost of 100 bucks to you. But maybe the value to

Bassam Sabbagh:

that client is $500. Because they don't have to do this. And

Bassam Sabbagh:

they don't have to do that. So why not charge $500 Instead of

Bassam Sabbagh:

just covering your costs. So always look at things from what

Bassam Sabbagh:

value does it bring that may be beyond my marginal cost plus

Bassam Sabbagh:

offer or analysis separate my cost from what the value is to

Bassam Sabbagh:

the client and you may end up at a higher price level. I'll stop

Bassam Sabbagh:

right there. And as I said, I may drop off kind of quickly. So

Bassam Sabbagh:

have a great weekend, everybody and Merry Christmas and Happy

Bassam Sabbagh:

Holidays. And we'll see you on the other side. If I don't get

Bassam Sabbagh:

to say goodbye after.

Nicole York:

That was great beside them. And I think it's I

Nicole York:

think you bring up something that's a really important

Nicole York:

question that I had intended to kind of insert a little bit

Nicole York:

later on before we start asking for some participation from our

Nicole York:

audience. But and this will tie into what Kat said as well. I

Nicole York:

think it's important for us to first ask ourselves the question

Nicole York:

of how we actually want the pricing to affect the way that

Nicole York:

we run our business. And by that I mean, Kat mentioned that her

Nicole York:

decision to have us Session fee means that she gets to take a

Nicole York:

lot of the pressure off of herself and off of the sale. So

Nicole York:

that is something that is built into the way that's a pricing

Nicole York:

structure that's built into the way the business is run, that

Nicole York:

gets to allow her a lot of freedom, mental and emotional

Nicole York:

freedom, when it comes to bringing in an income and

Nicole York:

pricing her products, because now everything else is extra,

Nicole York:

right? Like it's, it's extra good. It's the growth money,

Nicole York:

it's the investment money, it's all that good stuff, she knows

Nicole York:

that she's covered. There are some folks who may need that

Nicole York:

additional stress in order to push them to make great sales.

Nicole York:

And so I know some people who there is no barrier to entry,

Nicole York:

you basically can come in and work with them for free. But

Nicole York:

then the individual product prices are through the roof. And

Nicole York:

that is they have to make that be a valuable way to work with

Nicole York:

them. So the barrier to entry is low, but they're so confident

Nicole York:

they're going to produce things that you can't walk away without

Nicole York:

that you are going to be willing to pay, you know, et cetera, et

Nicole York:

cetera, however much amount, they need a little bit of that

Nicole York:

stress in the business to force them to produce things that they

Nicole York:

believe to be worthwhile. And they have or they are the ones

Nicole York:

that now have to make that a value to the client. There are

Nicole York:

some folks who will, who will separate those things. So maybe

Nicole York:

the session fee is enough to just pay the business. And then

Nicole York:

the products that are accompanied maybe it's a, the

Nicole York:

maybe the lowest package is what we'll cover their income plus,

Nicole York:

right. So there are a lot of different ways that you can

Nicole York:

structure how you actually earn your money, where you're pricing

Nicole York:

your products, and how those things are broken up, depending

Nicole York:

on how you actually want to run your business. And I think it's

Nicole York:

really important to consider that because if you put a lot of

Nicole York:

pressure on yourself to make the sale, but you're not the kind of

Nicole York:

person who thrives under that pressure, and you don't do a

Nicole York:

very good job. Educating your clients why this system is

Nicole York:

valuable for them, instead of another system that they could

Nicole York:

have potentially worked with, like, if they go to a

Nicole York:

photographer who does package pricing. And they know that

Nicole York:

they're walking away with a couple of you know, printed

Nicole York:

mats, matted printed portraits, and, you know, album or

Nicole York:

whatever. And they're looking at your pricing structure, and you

Nicole York:

have to make sure that they understand why this is a value

Nicole York:

added type of structure for them. And that puts a lot of

Nicole York:

pressure on you and you are not equipped to handle it, then you

Nicole York:

may have just destroyed your ability to do business. So you

Nicole York:

really need to understand yourself and how you're going to

Nicole York:

function well. And that may take some experimentation, you may

Nicole York:

begin by by saying, you know, I want to make sure people can get

Nicole York:

through my door and my I just want to build my reputation in

Nicole York:

my name. And all of a sudden, you know, you that pressure to

Nicole York:

make the sale then destroys you. And despite how many people are

Nicole York:

coming through your door, you can't make a sale, you may need

Nicole York:

to move to a pricing structure that allows you to take that

Nicole York:

pressure off of yourself, and put the bar in front of your

Nicole York:

customer. And they do have to jump that bar in order to get

Nicole York:

through and work with you. And that takes the pressure off of

Nicole York:

the sale, you're going to have to work maybe a little bit

Nicole York:

harder to get people to book. But that's not the same thing as

Nicole York:

people turning down your artwork. And it's not the same

Nicole York:

emotional impact as people turning down your artwork. So my

Nicole York:

biggest advice would be to begin by considering how you want to

Nicole York:

structure selling how you want people to engage with buying

Nicole York:

from you. And if that's a way to run your business that is going

Nicole York:

to be good and healthy for you and enjoyable for you or because

Nicole York:

if it's not, I mean, you're not going to ever sell anything. So

Nicole York:

I think you really need to know that about yourself. There's no

Nicole York:

wrong way to structure how you sell if it works for you. And if

Nicole York:

you're still able to translate that to value added for your

Nicole York:

client. All right, Matt, how do you figure out how to price your

Nicole York:

products

Matt Stagliano:

and listen to cat

Nicole York:

that's a good good strategy. That's

Matt Stagliano:

what it comes down to I you know, it's no

Matt Stagliano:

secret I've learned so much from cat over the years and my my

Matt Stagliano:

approach into pricing is very, very similar to hers. I try to

Matt Stagliano:

keep things very simple for my clients. I know that most of the

Matt Stagliano:

clients that come in are savvy and that they've shopped and

Matt Stagliano:

they already have an understanding or a belief system

Matt Stagliano:

based around photography and how much things cost, how much they

Matt Stagliano:

expect to be paying based on their brother's cousin who's As

Matt Stagliano:

a photographer out in St. Louis, right, they have an

Matt Stagliano:

understanding of what photography costs in some

Matt Stagliano:

markets. So for me, when I blow those prices out of the water, I

Matt Stagliano:

need to make sure that what I'm selling has that additional

Matt Stagliano:

value to it. So what I find, when I'm pricing my products, I

Matt Stagliano:

set them to support my business, I set them so that I'm making

Matt Stagliano:

profit, so that all of the things that we've talked about

Matt Stagliano:

the past few days in terms of financials and you know,

Matt Stagliano:

supporting your business, I make sure that that's all in place.

Matt Stagliano:

Then when I'm confident with how I feel about my pricing, if I

Matt Stagliano:

look at it as a consumer, and I say, Yeah, you know what this is

Matt Stagliano:

valuable to me, then I feel very comfortable selling it. So when

Matt Stagliano:

it comes to, you know, individual pricing and

Matt Stagliano:

percentages, and looking at it like that, I probably take a

Matt Stagliano:

slightly looser approach to it. Right, if if I had someone go in

Matt Stagliano:

and calculate all of my print pricing and percentages based on

Matt Stagliano:

size and what they're getting, they might find some

Matt Stagliano:

inconsistencies going from 15 prints to 20 prints or whatever.

Matt Stagliano:

My goal is to make that a non issue through education and

Matt Stagliano:

through value creation with the client. So that they're not

Matt Stagliano:

nitpicking and trying to figure out well, if I only get the

Matt Stagliano:

Digital's and not the prints, can I save some money, those are

Matt Stagliano:

not the conversations that I want to get into. Sometimes

Matt Stagliano:

they're inevitable, but they're really not the conversations

Matt Stagliano:

that I want to get into. So for me, pricing really comes down to

Matt Stagliano:

the value in the education that I'm providing. The way that I

Matt Stagliano:

actually do it is, you know, I base my pricing on size for

Matt Stagliano:

Walmart example. For example, it's just based on size, it's

Matt Stagliano:

not based on material, you can get it on a multi paper, you can

Matt Stagliano:

get it on an etch a sketch doesn't matter to me, as long as

Matt Stagliano:

you have a certain size, that's what I'm charging, the extra

Matt Stagliano:

sketch takes a little bit more time for, you know, folio boxes

Matt Stagliano:

and albums or one off things that people might want. You

Matt Stagliano:

know, I always say I want to be that their one stop shop, I

Matt Stagliano:

don't want them to take my digital image, and then go to

Matt Stagliano:

Shutterfly to get a book, talk to me about what it is that you

Matt Stagliano:

need. And I'll see if I can source it from my labs, if it's

Matt Stagliano:

something that I absolutely cannot provide, then I won't,

Matt Stagliano:

I'll just tell them straight out, that's not something that I

Matt Stagliano:

do. But if it is something that I can do, I'll work up a quote

Matt Stagliano:

for them, if I'm making snow globes, or, you know, curtains

Matt Stagliano:

with prints on it. Sure, I don't really keep those in the studio.

Matt Stagliano:

And it's not something that I do, but I'll work up a quote for

Matt Stagliano:

you. And if I'm doing something like that, that's out of the

Matt Stagliano:

norm, I'll use that, you know, that 10 time pricing, if it

Matt Stagliano:

makes sense. But I know again, that my consumers are going to

Matt Stagliano:

be savvy, and they've probably already done some shopping or

Matt Stagliano:

have a range in mind. So I keep my prices where I need them to

Matt Stagliano:

support the business. And then I just make sure that I'm

Matt Stagliano:

providing the value around that so that it becomes a non issue.

Matt Stagliano:

And they just say, oh, yeah, okay, like 3000 4000 $5,000.

Matt Stagliano:

Yeah, that's fine. I totally get the value in the way that I was

Matt Stagliano:

treated, and the product quality that I'm getting, and the hand

Matt Stagliano:

holding that I'm getting from Matt Yeah, it's totally worth

Matt Stagliano:

it. So I just try to make sure that the the client is educated

Matt Stagliano:

and comfortable all along the way. And that the pricing for my

Matt Stagliano:

products supports my business. I know I said the same thing like

Matt Stagliano:

four times, but I was just trying to say from different

Matt Stagliano:

angles.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Hey, I just want to Yeah, I just want to say,

Bassam Sabbagh:

Matt, that you you you clarified something as a with a with a

Bassam Sabbagh:

proper example, I thought with the way you said it, when I was

Bassam Sabbagh:

talking about, you know, having, you know, being clear about what

Bassam Sabbagh:

you're basing it on, right? It does take away that that

Bassam Sabbagh:

conversation that you don't want to have. So when you say hey, my

Bassam Sabbagh:

pricing is based on 200 or $300, an image whether it's digital,

Bassam Sabbagh:

whether it's this, whether it comes in that box, that's the

Bassam Sabbagh:

value of my image. So it takes away you're absolutely right.

Bassam Sabbagh:

You don't want to have that discussion. You don't want to

Bassam Sabbagh:

have wise clients trying to finagle your pricing and and

Bassam Sabbagh:

that's why by sticking to that, and having clarity around that,

Bassam Sabbagh:

and having consistency in your pricing around that, relatively

Bassam Sabbagh:

speaking, it does take away that conversation and it comes down

Bassam Sabbagh:

to simply educating about what is the value itself?

Nicole York:

Yeah, and I want to make sure that I kind of step in

Nicole York:

and look at this from a an artist perspective as well. So

Nicole York:

somebody who is not a portrait photographer, or who is creating

Nicole York:

that for clients. Some of us are just artists, Becca's not here

Nicole York:

today but she mentioned you know that what you pay her for is not

Nicole York:

necessarily a final digital image. It's her ideas, it's her

Nicole York:

ability to execute those ideas. And so for those of us who are

Nicole York:

not working within the kind of structure that portrait

Nicole York:

photographers might use, we have to look at other ways to begin

Nicole York:

pricing our products. And, as besar mentioned, going on, on a,

Nicole York:

like a per image basis, so it's what is the cost of image

Nicole York:

creation, right? There are a lot of different factors that are

Nicole York:

going to go into that, depending on what our circumstances are,

Nicole York:

if I am paying for a space in a gallery, and that's where I

Nicole York:

sell, and I also am paying for a space in a studio where I can

Nicole York:

work. And I am, I have brushes and I have paints and I have

Nicole York:

paint thinner, and I have varnish and etc, etc, then I

Nicole York:

have a lot of overhead costs that go into the process of

Nicole York:

creating this painting. So that means at a very baseline, I

Nicole York:

obviously need to cover those costs, how many hours does it

Nicole York:

take me to create a painting that I can sell, so that now

Nicole York:

becomes an overhead cost, and maybe I'm paying myself $50 An

Nicole York:

hour or $150 an hour, whatever it is, I'm paying, that's going

Nicole York:

to cover how often I can work, let's say I can paint three days

Nicole York:

a week, and I know that I need to earn this much money per year

Nicole York:

in order to survive, I need to do that math, right. So we know

Nicole York:

at the very base minimum, any image you get from me, it

Nicole York:

doesn't matter if it's eight by 12, it doesn't matter if it's

Nicole York:

24. By 36, at the very, very minimum, I have to be making

Nicole York:

$1,000 from this image, in order to cover the overhead of the

Nicole York:

cost, it took me to create it, plus the the amount of product I

Nicole York:

use that went into the creation of it and the amount of hours

Nicole York:

that it took me. So that is the the absolute bare minimum,

Nicole York:

right, if I don't make that, then I'm selling this thing at a

Nicole York:

loss. Okay, so we know that that's the very bottom line. And

Nicole York:

our, our bottom lines are going to be different depending on

Nicole York:

where we're working. So if I'm a digital artist, and I'm working

Nicole York:

out of my bedroom, and I have you know, I've got my all my

Nicole York:

goods in there, and I'm selling digital pieces, then my overhead

Nicole York:

is obviously incredibly low, it is much farther down the line.

Nicole York:

And it's going to be for somebody who is renting a

Nicole York:

gallery space and am paying for studio. So those are things that

Nicole York:

you have to consider what is your individual situation, and

Nicole York:

what is the very bottom that you can potentially accept for a

Nicole York:

piece, then you have some interesting decisions to make

Nicole York:

here. And these things apply to photographers as well. Because

Nicole York:

there's not just the the main bottom line value that you need

Nicole York:

in order to pay yourself and your business. There's also the

Nicole York:

perceived value in the market and where you want to place

Nicole York:

yourself. So if an important part of how you want people to

Nicole York:

see you, if an important part of your brand story is high end,

Nicole York:

hard to acquire, there's a lot of prestige in getting a piece

Nicole York:

of work or working with this artist and you want to put

Nicole York:

yourself up there, then you need to price your products in order

Nicole York:

to hit that range of prestige. So who else is in your area?

Nicole York:

This is where your market research comes into play? Who

Nicole York:

else is in your area? How are they perceived by the market?

Nicole York:

And what are they charging, maybe my very baseline price for

Nicole York:

an oil painting needs to be $1,000. And I'm looking at my

Nicole York:

area, it's a tourist area, a lot of folks come here, some of the

Nicole York:

bigger galleries are open, and a lot of these artists are selling

Nicole York:

pieces for five 710 $1,000. If I want to reach that level of

Nicole York:

prestige, then I need to be aiming my prices in that

Nicole York:

direction. But I also have another important question I

Nicole York:

need to ask myself, anybody who's a serious art buyer also

Nicole York:

considers, like once you get to a certain level that people are

Nicole York:

spending, they are going to be looking at things like what's

Nicole York:

the history of this artist who else has bought from them? How

Nicole York:

much do they generally sell for, you need to understand that art

Nicole York:

market and how it functions, if you're going to be able to sell

Nicole York:

your pieces for the for the price that you want to sell

Nicole York:

them, and to hit what you want the story of your brand to be if

Nicole York:

you want to hit that prestige. So people do care. People who

Nicole York:

spend that kind of money on a piece do care about the

Nicole York:

provenance of the piece. How was it created? Where was it

Nicole York:

created? Why was it created who who helped him what pieces went

Nicole York:

into that who else is bought from this artist, if it's if you

Nicole York:

know some famous person owns a piece of your artwork that that

Nicole York:

then in increases the prestige I have in owning a piece as well.

Nicole York:

So there's a lot that goes into play there that you need to keep

Nicole York:

in mind as an artist and you can take some of these same

Nicole York:

principles and use them as a portrait photographer, if I make

Nicole York:

it difficult to work with me if my price is really high. So that

Nicole York:

is that is a barrier to entry and if I'm booked really far out

Nicole York:

in advance and that is a barrier to entry and if to work with

Nicole York:

Have me, I'm going to let's all use my my imaginary business if

Nicole York:

I'm a fantasy portrait photographer, and I have a

Nicole York:

library of costumes, and if I build things specifically just

Nicole York:

for this shoot, and you're the only client who will ever, ever

Nicole York:

wear it, and maybe you can also take it with you, when you

Nicole York:

leave, like I made it for you, and I've included that in the

Nicole York:

cost, there is a lot of hands on specialty things that are going

Nicole York:

on there, that means I have added value, even if it's just

Nicole York:

perceived value that I can use to raise my prices. The flip

Nicole York:

side to that is, I now have to really chase down my clients, I

Nicole York:

have to really, I have to market to these folks really well, I

Nicole York:

have to find them. And they have to believe that it's worth it to

Nicole York:

come and work with me. So I may not be, I may not be putting a

Nicole York:

whole lot of work in the back end, maybe I'm just sending them

Nicole York:

a digital file, a lot of my work is coming on the front end. And

Nicole York:

that has to increase the price. So there's a lot to consider

Nicole York:

here, when you're looking at pricing an individual piece,

Nicole York:

whether you are an artist or a portrait photographer, and the

Nicole York:

perceived value that goes into that as well. And not just the

Nicole York:

hard costs that we have to cover. And that is why

Nicole York:

understanding you know, we talked about earlier the

Nicole York:

philosophy of your business and who you want to be in your

Nicole York:

marketplace with. That's the reason we talked about all of

Nicole York:

those things, because now we have to consider them. When it

Nicole York:

comes to how we price our individual product. Those things

Nicole York:

all reflect back on the story that you're telling, if I'm

Nicole York:

trying to tell people a story, that I am a luxury high end

Nicole York:

boutique brand, that everything I do is specifically for you.

Nicole York:

And nobody else will have what you have, and I'm charging you

Nicole York:

$100 For a piece of wall art. I've just ruined the entire

Nicole York:

story that I've been trying to tell you from front to back, I

Nicole York:

tried to tell you that with my marketing, I tried to tell you

Nicole York:

that with my fancy studio, I tried to tell you that with all

Nicole York:

these things. And then you come in and I'm only charging you

Nicole York:

$100 For a piece of art. I'm about to just ruin everything I

Nicole York:

tried to tell you. And if I tried to tell you that I am in

Nicole York:

affordable, my whole business model is on being an affordable

Nicole York:

place for families to capture memories. And then I try to

Nicole York:

charge you $8,000 for an album. I've just destroyed everything

Nicole York:

I've tried to build. So understanding who you want to be

Nicole York:

in your business, who you want your business to be in the

Nicole York:

marketplace, the story that you're trying to tell people,

Nicole York:

and then looking at all the hard costs that are involved in the

Nicole York:

creation of those things, all of that kind of comes together. In

Nicole York:

order to either support the business that you're making, or

Nicole York:

undermine the business that you're making, I think it's

Nicole York:

really important for us to know those things about how we want

Nicole York:

to present ourselves. And remember the the selling process

Nicole York:

begins with the marketing. And then goes all the way through

Nicole York:

the entire process, whether you're selling fine art, an

Nicole York:

individual piece that is numbered and signed with a

Nicole York:

certificate of authentication, authen Crieff with a certificate

Nicole York:

of authentication, authenticity.

Nicole York:

Or if you're sending somebody a digital print online, and they

Nicole York:

can print it wherever they want to, you need to know those

Nicole York:

things about how you want your business to be perceived and how

Nicole York:

that perceived value then goes into pricing of individual

Nicole York:

products. All right, had to shift my position, want to get

Nicole York:

any feedback from the mods, and then we are opening it up to

Nicole York:

questions and thoughts. So if you have some really great

Nicole York:

thoughts on how you can price your products, I want you to

Nicole York:

raise your hand. And then after we get to people who have

Nicole York:

helpful things to offer, then we want to make sure we can answer

Nicole York:

a couple questions toward the end. So thoughts first, if

Nicole York:

you've got some great advice, please raise your hand we'd love

Nicole York:

to hear from you. And then we want questions.

Cat Ford-Coates:

I really like that you brought into the space

Cat Ford-Coates:

of of your sort of pricing model, right? Like the story

Cat Ford-Coates:

you're trying to tell about who you are trying to be in the

Cat Ford-Coates:

marketplace. So if you are trying to be like a high end

Cat Ford-Coates:

offering artists versus well not even versus but or the either or

Cat Ford-Coates:

right of the affordable place for families to make memories

Cat Ford-Coates:

and making sure that your pricing follows that space. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

I because I think one of the things that happens is we want

Cat Ford-Coates:

to at least I see it a lot in especially in the SPE world

Cat Ford-Coates:

because many people come into this this portrait photographer

Cat Ford-Coates:

space in the OH MY GOD $1,000 is like so much money. Right? But

Cat Ford-Coates:

they want to be offering these really beautiful luxurious

Cat Ford-Coates:

products and amazing experiences and transformational

Cat Ford-Coates:

opportunities for people to to really grow in themselves and

Cat Ford-Coates:

you get to facilitate That and all those things. But then you

Cat Ford-Coates:

can't say $1,000 out loud because $1,000 in your world is

Cat Ford-Coates:

like, I mean that living for an entire month, right? And

Cat Ford-Coates:

understanding who we need to grow into, in order to be able

Cat Ford-Coates:

to have the build the infrastructure for these

Cat Ford-Coates:

different spaces, right. So if we're wanting to be the

Cat Ford-Coates:

affordable place for families to come, then understanding that

Cat Ford-Coates:

our pricing model needs to be less bolstered, right, and you

Cat Ford-Coates:

need to be more and that like 25 to 40% Cost of Goods land. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

if you're wanting to be this, you know, boutique portrait

Cat Ford-Coates:

offering, then you need to not be scared of $1,000. So you need

Cat Ford-Coates:

to start investing in yourself to receive so that that $1,000

Cat Ford-Coates:

feels easy for you. And knowing that your pricing has to reflect

Cat Ford-Coates:

who it is that you want to be in the marketplace. I just, yeah, I

Cat Ford-Coates:

could go on tangents about that for a while. But I really wanted

Cat Ford-Coates:

to mark that. Because that's really powerful advice. And

Cat Ford-Coates:

understanding how we define ourselves in our business plan

Cat Ford-Coates:

with our mission and vision statements. And moving forward,

Cat Ford-Coates:

we structure everything around what that mission is including.

Nicole York:

Yeah, 100%. And that's one of the things I think

Nicole York:

the reason I wanted to make sure I brought it up is because it's

Nicole York:

one of the things when I was first starting out as a portrait

Nicole York:

photographer that I didn't consider at all, I just kind of

Nicole York:

had this notion because that's what I was surrounded by, in the

Nicole York:

small community that I lived in, I just kind of had this notion

Nicole York:

that everybody was somewhere around this price point as

Nicole York:

photographers, and that it was my work that was going to

Nicole York:

differentiate me, right, like I thought it was my eye and my

Nicole York:

artistic vision, I didn't really have one at the time. But like,

Nicole York:

that's what I thought, right? Like, it was just going to be

Nicole York:

purely the quality of my work that made people want to come

Nicole York:

and work with me instead. And I would just steal all business

Nicole York:

that way, because my work was so good. And this is a lie, guys,

Nicole York:

this is a lie, we tell ourselves, it's not that your

Nicole York:

work doesn't have to be good, right there is there is a low

Nicole York:

bar to entry, or I shouldn't say a low bar, but there is a bar to

Nicole York:

entry when it comes into, in general what the minimum

Nicole York:

standard should be for work that is created by professionals for,

Nicole York:

you know, buying clients. But we tend to think that it's it's

Nicole York:

purely going to be our vision, when really it's it's all of the

Nicole York:

things combined, right? It's the it's the story that we tell

Nicole York:

people, it's how we support that story. And if it's believable,

Nicole York:

it's how we solve their problems and where we fit into their

Nicole York:

lives. It's what problems we're solving for them. And if we're

Nicole York:

talking to the right people, and so pricing, then obviously

Nicole York:

there's there's the hard cost that pricing fulfills, and we've

Nicole York:

talked about that there's the the minimum numbers, the truth

Nicole York:

of those numbers that we need to hit in order for our business to

Nicole York:

run and for us to stay alive. And then there's the

Nicole York:

psychological aspect of those numbers and what they say, and

Nicole York:

do they match the story that we're trying to tell and

Nicole York:

everything all together, somebody might absolutely love

Nicole York:

my work, they might see it and think, Oh, I'd love to have that

Nicole York:

for myself, and then look at the pricing and, and the website and

Nicole York:

the delivery and think wow, these things don't match, there

Nicole York:

is some mental disconnect happening here. And I can't

Nicole York:

really understand how I'm looking at this quality of work.

Nicole York:

And then I'm looking at the price and the website looks like

Nicole York:

shit and etc, etc. And these things are, are now

Nicole York:

contradictory in my head, I can't make this work. And so

Nicole York:

they never even reach out to book with me. The pricing is

Nicole York:

also a psychological aspect that has to imagine with the rest of

Nicole York:

the story that we're telling people about who we are so that

Nicole York:

it all makes sense. That way, you know, when they show up, and

Nicole York:

I'm explaining the value to them through the way that they're

Nicole York:

treated and their experience and all that good stuff. Everything

Nicole York:

is copacetic and there's no contradiction happening there

Nicole York:

that makes them go I'm now uncomfortable because something

Nicole York:

doesn't fit. And it doesn't seem like that should be the case.

Nicole York:

But it 100% is

Cat Ford-Coates:

Oh, show.

Nicole York:

Yep. All right, guys. We're getting close to the

Nicole York:

end of the hour. If you have any thoughts now is the time so

Nicole York:

nobody has raised their hand asking if you've cried if you

Nicole York:

guys have some great advice about how to price your

Nicole York:

products. If you have some questions, feel free to raise

Nicole York:

your hand and we'll make sure that we address those before we

Nicole York:

close for Christmas and holidays and time with our families. So

Nicole York:

don't be afraid. Do we have any final thoughts? I know it's

Nicole York:

time. Do we have any final thoughts guys? To offer folks

Nicole York:

about this idea of how we should be pricing or some methods we

Nicole York:

can look at

Cat Ford-Coates:

Oh kinds of methods, so many methods. You

Cat Ford-Coates:

know, and maybe there are, we've talked a lot about like pricing

Cat Ford-Coates:

products. But what if, you know, our product is purely digital?

Cat Ford-Coates:

Right? What if we based all of our pricing off of just full res

Cat Ford-Coates:

or web brez? Right, like, just keeping everything in a digital

Cat Ford-Coates:

space to keep those, you know, cost of goods way down, right,

Cat Ford-Coates:

and still be in a sustainable place where we can, you know,

Cat Ford-Coates:

thrive as human beings. What does that kind of pricing model

Cat Ford-Coates:

look like? Like, you know, I, one of the things that I do say

Cat Ford-Coates:

to my clients is, I will never be the photographer, that just

Cat Ford-Coates:

Chuck's everything onto a desk and hand it to you. But at the

Cat Ford-Coates:

end of the day, that's actually a lie. If the dollar amounts,

Cat Ford-Coates:

right, I will happily just hand everything right over and just

Cat Ford-Coates:

be like, great, have a nice day. You know, and I do have a couple

Cat Ford-Coates:

of clients that are like that. Now, those clients are in the

Cat Ford-Coates:

the 20k plus range. Um, but that's when you start getting

Cat Ford-Coates:

into day rates, and then setting the boundaries around those

Cat Ford-Coates:

deliverables. You know, am I delivering everything at Raw? am

Cat Ford-Coates:

I delivering everything edited? Is there like, Okay, well, this

Cat Ford-Coates:

is my my day rate plus, you know, 30 images, 60 images, 100

Cat Ford-Coates:

images, right? And start looking at things from that perspective.

Cat Ford-Coates:

And how do you determine what your day rate is versus what

Cat Ford-Coates:

your product pricing is? And understanding that those two

Cat Ford-Coates:

things have to be cohesive as well. Because when you start

Cat Ford-Coates:

getting into clients that are like, Well, I mean, what if I

Cat Ford-Coates:

just want you to what if I want to take you to Europe? And have

Cat Ford-Coates:

you photograph me for, you know, a week? Okay, that's cool, we

Cat Ford-Coates:

can definitely make that happen. Right? But what does that look

Cat Ford-Coates:

like in a space? Where, okay, well, if I'm gone from my studio

Cat Ford-Coates:

for a week, and I'm not able to charge clients, what I would be

Cat Ford-Coates:

charging for being in that space. Okay, and how do you

Cat Ford-Coates:

backtrack, that pricing, so that you're on location, and

Cat Ford-Coates:

destination work is not only cohesive for that, but

Cat Ford-Coates:

sustainable for you to generate the numbers you need to hit in

Cat Ford-Coates:

order to stay in business?

Nicole York:

Yeah, there's just so many things to consider,

Nicole York:

which is why I'm so glad we're having this conversation.

Nicole York:

Because we just need to be good business people. I mean, we

Nicole York:

really need to understand the costs going into this, and how

Nicole York:

those relate all across the board, which is why, you know,

Nicole York:

we wanted to make sure we had this conversation. So Juliette

Nicole York:

would love to hear your thoughts. Hi, I'll

Juliet:

try not to be too wordy. Um, so this year, I hit like, a

Juliet:

sweet spot for instant with families. And so um, and it's

Juliet:

funny, we do all our homework and research and like even Matt

Juliet:

saying, one size, one price, it's just like, you never know

Juliet:

where you're gonna find the morsels from different people as

Juliet:

you do your homework. But I think the bottom line is finding

Juliet:

products that you love and believe in and like I have a few

Juliet:

things that I that I have in the studio that are just the way I

Juliet:

would use them, because I don't have room in my house for an 11

Juliet:

by 14 Full folio box. So I don't know how to translate that for

Juliet:

people. And so I think, being really confident and also being

Juliet:

flexible, I think are the key elements for me in in having

Juliet:

sustainable pricing and dealing with clients.

Nicole York:

Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right, that if

Nicole York:

you're not 100%, behind your products, it's going to be

Nicole York:

really difficult to sell them. But if you're selling things

Nicole York:

that you adore, and you're able to talk about them passionately,

Nicole York:

and how they're going to bring value to somebody's life, all of

Nicole York:

a sudden the sale doesn't become absolutely. Anthony want to hear

Nicole York:

from you as well. What are your thoughts on?

Unknown:

Oh, no, I don't have a lot of custom pricing. And thank

Unknown:

you guys for all the information you guys share, because I've

Unknown:

learned so much from the business standpoint, that is one

Unknown:

of the areas that I like and I'm learning. I want to ask you guys

Unknown:

if there's any book that you guys like, I would definitely go

Unknown:

with the trend to find out a good business book, as you know,

Unknown:

from the artists standpoint, but I haven't find like you know, a

Unknown:

good one. I was wondering if you guys recommended any thing

Nicole York:

any books on pricing guys or or business?

Nicole York:

Business? Yeah.

Cat Ford-Coates:

Right. Right. Yeah. Or business that you

Cat Ford-Coates:

really

Matt Stagliano:

you know, I probably need to do a little bit

Matt Stagliano:

of thinking on that. But I think it's an it's an awesome topic

Matt Stagliano:

for the Facebook group. Right. So I think we should To develop

Matt Stagliano:

a must have book list and maybe even maybe even pin it in the

Matt Stagliano:

Facebook group, because this question does come up a lot. And

Matt Stagliano:

for every situation, there are some, you know, more pointed

Matt Stagliano:

books, and then there's some that are more generic that I

Matt Stagliano:

keep as Bibles in my shelf. So, yeah, I'd love to, you know, I

Matt Stagliano:

can start that list if you want in the Facebook group, and we

Matt Stagliano:

can just kind of keep adding to it and make sure that it becomes

Matt Stagliano:

our little bit of a library. Yeah,

Nicole York:

that was amazing.

Unknown:

Oh, thank you so much. Definitely, I bought atomic

Unknown:

habits. Thanks for you guys.

Unknown:

Oh, what have you.

Unknown:

Oh, how it started, you know, finishing one that I'm reading

Unknown:

and then that's my next one under list.

Nicole York:

Awesome. Well, I hope we can, we will have the

Nicole York:

artist forge book club by the end of this. Well, this will be

Nicole York:

talking about all the awesome books that we've read and what

Nicole York:

we've learned. All right. So just to wrap everything in a

Nicole York:

neat little bow, we've been discussing financing finances,

Nicole York:

for our business, the hard numbers, the monies. And today,

Nicole York:

we're looking at how we price our products, not just from a

Nicole York:

physical point of view from what they actually cost. And all of

Nicole York:

the hard numbers, the overhead it cost to create those

Nicole York:

products, the cost of the goods themselves. And then you know,

Nicole York:

the potential variable costs that go into that, but also from

Nicole York:

a psychological standpoint, and how do these numbers represent

Nicole York:

our brand, and who we want to be in the marketplace where we're

Nicole York:

trying to position ourselves are those things supporting one

Nicole York:

another, there's a lot of different potential methods that

Nicole York:

you could look at this, we really love cats method of it's

Nicole York:

just 10%. So if it costs me, you know, $2.50, then it's probably

Nicole York:

going to cost $250 to buy. And looking at that as a way to just

Nicole York:

begin, like, that's the the minimum level that everything's

Nicole York:

at, that's where it sits. And so I can build my pricing structure

Nicole York:

off of that, in order for everything to make sense. And

Nicole York:

also in order to support so once you look at that number, then

Nicole York:

you get to ask yourself, Okay, now that the cost of you know,

Nicole York:

the goods and the overhead that goes into this product now that

Nicole York:

everything is there, what does this product, say about my

Nicole York:

business? does it fall in line? And if it doesn't, how can I

Nicole York:

change everything. So remember, that your business is a habitat,

Nicole York:

right? It is an ecosystem, and all of the different parts of

Nicole York:

the business need to support one another. And so if you have

Nicole York:

built yourself to be the affordable family place, and now

Nicole York:

you have done the math to figure out what your cost of goods is,

Nicole York:

and your final product needs to be $500, for an eight by 10,

Nicole York:

print, then does that support you being the affordable family

Nicole York:

photographer, maybe not? Maybe not for your area, that's why

Nicole York:

market research is important. So then you start changing some

Nicole York:

things in your ecosystem. Maybe all of the sudden, though, that

Nicole York:

price of the print gets rolled into something else, like you

Nicole York:

know, the cost of a location or whatever it is, in order to

Nicole York:

justify that cost or to mitigate that cost. So people feel like

Nicole York:

they're not quite spending as much as they are. Or maybe you

Nicole York:

change that and it becomes your session fee. And then the

Nicole York:

individual prints become much cheaper, so that people feel

Nicole York:

like they are able to get as many prints as they want. But

Nicole York:

you've covered your cost of doing business already. There's

Nicole York:

a lot of different ways, really myriad, multiple ways that your

Nicole York:

pricing can be structured, in order to not only support you

Nicole York:

and have a business that can thrive, but also that allows

Nicole York:

your clients to feel like they're getting the value that

Nicole York:

they're paying for. But you need to understand the hard costs

Nicole York:

going into this. So you can use that as a baseline to build

Nicole York:

everything off of and then ask yourself, Does this support who

Nicole York:

I want to be in the marketplace?

Nicole York:

Just as a quick example, before we go, there are some folks who

Nicole York:

are retail artists, their their whole goal is to make things for

Nicole York:

a lot of people. They want to sell prints to everybody I know

Nicole York:

I've mentioned Chris Rainey acts several times, he's on

Nicole York:

Instagram, he draws and sculpts these adorable monsters that

Nicole York:

just give me life. Every time I see him. They're so damn cute. I

Nicole York:

want to buy all of them. I have several of his prints, they're

Nicole York:

incredibly affordable, I might be able to get a little print

Nicole York:

for 15 bucks or 25 bucks. I'm willing to do that and so are

Nicole York:

1000s of other people guys. So all of a sudden he doesn't need

Nicole York:

to be an artist who is selling a single drawing of his for

Nicole York:

$10,000 He gets to sell to 20,000 30,000 100,000 people for

Nicole York:

15 bucks apiece, you can do the math and figure out how much you

Nicole York:

might be earning there. But you both of those methods, the

Nicole York:

individual artist who is selling assigned piece for a bazillion

Nicole York:

dollars, or the retail artists who is selling 20,000 pieces for

Nicole York:

$10 apiece. Both of these people are going to make really good

Nicole York:

living the question becomes how do you want to live your life

Nicole York:

and who do you want to serve? And then how do you build your

Nicole York:

processes and your prices in order to do that? So I hope that

Nicole York:

the last few days of conversation were really helpful

Nicole York:

to you. I know the rest of the artists for us really loved

Nicole York:

having everybody there last night for the live stream. If

Nicole York:

you didn't get to see or be a part of it, I absolutely can

Nicole York:

guarantee there was good stuff there. So go ahead over to

Nicole York:

Nicole creates on YouTube or to the Facebook page, and you will

Nicole York:

be able to see the replays of that. Thanks for being with us

Nicole York:

this week. Have an amazing holiday. If you celebrate the

Nicole York:

holiday if you don't, hopefully you have an incredible relaxing

Nicole York:

weekend and you come back into the New Year feeling

Nicole York:

rejuvenated. We will see everybody bright and early on

Nicole York:

Monday morning at 7am Mountain Standard Time that is 6am for

Nicole York:

the West Coast and 9am for the East Coast. In the meantime, go

Nicole York:

make something amazing. We'll see you all next week.

Matt Stagliano:

Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse

Matt Stagliano:

discussion moderated by all of us at the artist Forge. We hope

Matt Stagliano:

you found the information useful and that it helps you gain a

Matt Stagliano:

little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft. For more

Matt Stagliano:

episodes, please join us each weekday on clubhouse or visit

Matt Stagliano:

the artists forge.com Go make something incredible

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About the Podcast

Morning Walk with The Artist's Forge
How to Critique Art
Learn how mindset, creativity, and visual literacy will help you think like an artist so you can create work you love and build a career that matters; bridging the gap between technique and art.

About your host

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Nicole York