Dealing with Perfectionism
If you have ever felt like you cannot create or share art because it will never be perfect, this conversation is for you.
Too many artists who could be creating and sharing beautiful, meaningful work, are hamstrung by the need to have perfect work. But this is something artists can overcome if they approach it right and change the internal narratives around the work they create.
Transcript
Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being
Matt Stagliano:part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who
Matt Stagliano:help each other think like an artist by discussing creativity
Matt Stagliano:as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone
Matt Stagliano:has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need
Matt Stagliano:some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What
Matt Stagliano:you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily
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Matt Stagliano:I encourage you to join our private Facebook group or visit
Matt Stagliano:us on the web at the artist forge COMM Now on to the show.
Nicole York:Alright, Joe, I see we have friends already joining
Nicole York:us good morning Tyler, Carolyn, Robert Kate Gina. Well, Gil
Nicole York:emphasise Allah, I hope you're having an amazing morning so
Nicole York:far. And welcome to Morning walk and photo talk with the artist
Nicole York:Forge. It's cold now, I think, here in New Mexico, we have
Nicole York:officially moved into actual autumn, the trees are getting
Nicole York:close to bear. And it's like down in the 20s in the mornings
Nicole York:now. So the cold has arrived. But the weird thing isn't next
Nicole York:hour, it'll raise by at least 10 degrees. So all this warm stuff
Nicole York:I put on my walk will probably be peeled off and wrapped around
Nicole York:my waist by the time the walk is over. So you got to be prepared
Nicole York:for the changes. And that's why we're finishing up this week
Nicole York:talking about internal conflict. And today, we want to touch on
Nicole York:the topic of perfectionism. Because this is one of those
Nicole York:things, so many artists stumble over, this need to feel like the
Nicole York:work is perfect. And right along next to perfectionism, we have
Nicole York:things like comparison, and the feelings of just not being good
Nicole York:enough, not meeting the standard, or having people out
Nicole York:there whose work is just better than ours, and will never be
Nicole York:able to reach that standard. So there's a whole lot that's
Nicole York:wrapped up in feeling the stress of needing to be perfect, of not
Nicole York:being good enough comparing ourselves to others. And it can
Nicole York:be a really difficult hurdle to leap over. Because as we've
Nicole York:talked about, before, there's always gonna be somebody out
Nicole York:there better than us. Somebody a little more, a little more
Nicole York:talented, or skilled, or who's been in the game a little bit
Nicole York:longer, or has a more unique vision or whatever it is. And it
Nicole York:can make things difficult. So that is the topic of
Nicole York:conversation for today. Prepare yourself, Gird your loins.
Nicole York:Because this is probably going to be a little bit of a
Nicole York:difficult one. I have not met an artist yet. Who hasn't gone
Nicole York:through this, at least a little bit. So I want to begin by
Nicole York:asking my panel members this morning. Do you guys deal with
Nicole York:the difficulties of perfectionism? Do you find
Nicole York:comparing yourself to others a challenge? That's kind of
Nicole York:difficult to face? Do you ever suffer from those feelings of
Nicole York:not really being good enough? When you look at your work
Nicole York:compared to your peers? And how you stand in your communities,
Nicole York:your artistic communities? And if you do, what do we do about
Nicole York:it guys? Like how do we deal with those feelings? How do we
Nicole York:move past them change the narrative? Not let those things
Nicole York:stop us from getting where we want to go as artists, business
Nicole York:people.
Cat Ford-Coates:Every single time I walk into an art group,
Cat Ford-Coates:I'm like, Well, what the fuck am I even doing here?
Nicole York:It always hurts so much. Like, oh, man, it got
Nicole York:right to the center of your soul. So what does that like for
Nicole York:you, cat? And how do you deal with that? Do you find that to
Nicole York:be kind of a passing thing that rears its ugly head? And then
Nicole York:you're like, ah, get out of here? Or is it more of a more of
Nicole York:a continuous struggle?
Cat Ford-Coates:I think it's just something I have to accept,
Cat Ford-Coates:you know, come back to that question like, is this true? And
Cat Ford-Coates:then just say, You know what, all I can do is keep moving or
Cat Ford-Coates:stay still. So
Unknown:what do I choose to do?
Cat Ford-Coates:Then I choose to learn and grow and be better
Cat Ford-Coates:and yeah, just keep going.
Nicole York:That makes sense. So when you have those feelings
Nicole York:pop up, it sounds like it's almost kind of a and so what
Nicole York:like I either stop or I keep going, despite the fact that I
Nicole York:feel like I don't measure up. I mean, what are your options
Nicole York:really, right?
Cat Ford-Coates:I mean, those are the options right? Like,
Cat Ford-Coates:stop or go.
Nicole York:I mean, that's true. It's strangely, it's
Nicole York:reminds me of as a military spouse, I have, a lot of people
Nicole York:will say, Oh, I just don't know how you do it, when he leaves
Nicole York:you in here alone for a year with your kids, and I don't
Nicole York:think I could do that. And I'm like, Well, what? What would you
Nicole York:do just leave like this? I mean, the options are to stay and
Nicole York:gutted out or to say bye. And that is kind of a shitty option.
Nicole York:So you just do it? I mean, I guess it's kind of a similar
Nicole York:analogy. Do you quit and go work at Nordstrom? Or do you keep
Nicole York:doing what you're doing anyway?
Cat Ford-Coates:What is it that Sue says I'm completely
Cat Ford-Coates:unemployable?
Nicole York:I'm kind of beginning to discover that about
Nicole York:myself. So that makes sense, as a just really simple, simplified
Nicole York:way of asking yourself, what are your options here? Is it true?
Nicole York:And if it is, what are the what are what can you do about a new
Nicole York:quitter? You go? It's a really good, good question to ask
Nicole York:yourself kind of a good baseline to orient yourself. So let's say
Nicole York:we go, okay, not gonna quit, gonna keep going. But these
Nicole York:feelings might make us hesitate or make us stop or feel just
Nicole York:feel bad enough that maybe they steal some of the joy from the
Nicole York:things that we're doing. Do you find that that's the case at
Nicole York:all? Or once you've made that decision? Does it the rest kind
Nicole York:of handle itself?
Cat Ford-Coates:Um, I just sort of lean into like, Okay, if the
Cat Ford-Coates:if we're playing like the comparison game, and you see
Cat Ford-Coates:something that just blows you away, and you're like, Ah, fuck
Cat Ford-Coates:me. Like, once you take the, the that, that initial impact out of
Cat Ford-Coates:the equation, and you start dialing into like, okay, what
Cat Ford-Coates:are the? What are the components of this that I really
Cat Ford-Coates:appreciate? What do I really love about this? Why is it
Cat Ford-Coates:hitting me like this? And you kind of dig into that visual
Cat Ford-Coates:literacy a little bit to see if you can deconstruct it, and how
Cat Ford-Coates:can you implement or practice that thing into your own
Cat Ford-Coates:workflow, so that it can become part of your repertoire? I think
Cat Ford-Coates:that happens a lot too. Like if I'm, if I'm pretty if I'm
Cat Ford-Coates:following, say, it's Instagram, right, and I'm following like,
Cat Ford-Coates:the algorithm has this one artist like in my feed, always,
Cat Ford-Coates:I actually have to go and be like, Okay, I am recognizing
Cat Ford-Coates:this as far too, too often. So I need to like, mess with the
Cat Ford-Coates:algorithm to get other input, I have to go looking for other
Cat Ford-Coates:artists so that I don't spend all of my time with blinders on
Cat Ford-Coates:and start looking for other inspiration and other influence
Cat Ford-Coates:that I can I can draw from and incorporate as well. Otherwise,
Cat Ford-Coates:it ends up just getting really like murky.
Nicole York:I really love that. So we have some, like fantastic
Nicole York:practical things there. I love the idea of kind of making sure
Nicole York:that you're not being bombarded with that same work over and
Nicole York:over again, I think there's a lot of good things that come
Nicole York:from that, right, not just making sure that we're not
Nicole York:continuously being thrown against that wall of here's
Nicole York:someone who's better than you. But also, so that our
Nicole York:inspiration doesn't, you know, become a one sided, and we kind
Nicole York:of lose some of that variability. So I really, really
Nicole York:love that advice. And then I also I also appreciate the fact
Nicole York:that it's like, the question is now, so you've decided to move
Nicole York:forward. So how do you like, how you do it? And I love just
Nicole York:taking that apart and saying, Okay, if this is making me feel
Nicole York:like my work, does not reach the standard, what is it about it?
Nicole York:That's so good? And how do I take those pieces and implement
Nicole York:what it is, and maybe it's the light and maybe it's the styling
Nicole York:or the quality of the model or the subject or whatever? Who
Nicole York:knows what it might be. But I think that's a really good
Nicole York:point. And also, since you brought that up, I also think
Nicole York:it's important for us to ask ourselves, when we see something
Nicole York:that's really fantastic like that, and it makes us feel some
Nicole York:kind of way. I think we also should ask ourselves, Is this
Nicole York:even something I want to do? And the reason is because I have to
Nicole York:ask myself that a lot. Because I'm highly competitive by
Nicole York:nature. And it's something that I have to I have to control
Nicole York:within myself because I cannot be everything as much as I can
Nicole York:Trying to be. And I will see somebody who has done some
Nicole York:really beautiful, maybe abstract black and whites or you know
Nicole York:something else. And I'll look at it and I'll be like, Oh my god,
Nicole York:it's so good. I need to do that's like, but then I have to
Nicole York:ask myself, Do I really though like, is that actually the
Nicole York:career I want to have? Because I can't be both, you know, an
Nicole York:abstract fine artist and a digital artist and a portrait
Nicole York:photographer and the end to end. And so there are definitely
Nicole York:times where I will allow myself to get sucked down that hole of
Nicole York:comparison, when I don't even actually want to be the thing
Nicole York:that I'm comparing myself to. I just really appreciate that
Nicole York:work. And for some reason, my natural inclination is to be
Nicole York:like, well, then you must do it. I don't. I just weirdly, feel
Nicole York:like I do. So that might be something for people who are
Nicole York:like me to consider kind of just like pinning on to cats. Really
Nicole York:fantastic advice about breaking down those pieces. And really
Nicole York:asking yourself, what is it about this work that I'm
Nicole York:connecting to? And certainly being able to take the pieces
Nicole York:that, that you can and fold those into your own process, but
Nicole York:making sure that it is actually something you want to do. And
Nicole York:not just I guess my feelings must be one of I don't know,
Nicole York:lesser, something? I haven't really. I haven't examined that
Nicole York:much. But I just know that that's something I do. So might
Nicole York:be something you do. Maybe something to avoid. Doesn't feel
Nicole York:super fantastic. I see we have lost Bisson. That's a bummer.
Nicole York:Maybe he can only be with us for a little bit this morning. Or
Nicole York:hopefully he comes back later. All right on the topic, y'all.
Nicole York:What? How do we deal if we are facing perfectionism comparison,
Nicole York:all those yucky things? How do we deal Matt, Becca? What do you
Nicole York:guys think?
Matt Stagliano:Way back? God, it must have been a couple of
Matt Stagliano:months back, you said something that really kind of hit me to my
Matt Stagliano:core, which was that when you were a kid, much like me, you're
Matt Stagliano:in the Gifted and Talented program or something to that
Matt Stagliano:effect, right. And so is i. And I think that was probably the
Matt Stagliano:worst thing that ever happened to my self confidence. And this
Matt Stagliano:leads somewhere, let me let me continue. So it's the worst
Matt Stagliano:thing that happened to my self confidence because it made me
Matt Stagliano:competitive, it made me think that I had to achieve a certain
Matt Stagliano:standard in things. And that's drilled into you over and over
Matt Stagliano:and over again, so that your bar keeps getting raised higher and
Matt Stagliano:higher. For me, it's the old emotion of doing something for
Matt Stagliano:the first time and being really excited about it. That sets the
Matt Stagliano:bar for me. But I found that my perfectionism is driven from
Matt Stagliano:wanting to recapture that emotion, wanting to feel that
Matt Stagliano:love and that passion for the thing that I'm doing and
Matt Stagliano:recapture that, that feeling again. So I'm constantly going,
Matt Stagliano:it's it's not as good as that first time, it's not as good,
Matt Stagliano:therefore the work isn't as good. If I'm looking at someone
Matt Stagliano:else's work, it's competitive. And again, it's like, You're
Matt Stagliano:better than this, you know, you're better than this, you've
Matt Stagliano:got to do better, no matter what the work is, right? So there's
Matt Stagliano:this constant high bar, that's almost always completely
Matt Stagliano:unattainable. That's where my perfectionism comes from. I
Matt Stagliano:think the way that I deal with it is kind of a couple of things
Matt Stagliano:that were were just said about, you know, you have two choices
Matt Stagliano:stop or go. There is, you know, is it true or not like you were
Matt Stagliano:just saying, Nicole, is it true that I even want to do this
Matt Stagliano:thing is this should this even matter to me, but it takes a few
Matt Stagliano:moments for me to just kind of step outside myself. And look at
Matt Stagliano:what it is that I'm complaining about? Why am I comparing or why
Matt Stagliano:do I have this perfectionist tendency? Why is this piece of
Matt Stagliano:work never done? Why is my work never good enough? Yada, yada,
Matt Stagliano:yada. So, once I can step outside and see that, then I
Matt Stagliano:realize what's going on. It's that self awareness, realize
Matt Stagliano:what's going on, realize, alright, it's just this kind of
Matt Stagliano:perfectionist part of you kicking up, reel it in and look
Matt Stagliano:at the work objectively, if you had no connection to it at all,
Matt Stagliano:what would you be thinking? And if there's something to add, or
Matt Stagliano:you know, improve, great if there's not, don't worry about
Matt Stagliano:it. So it's, again, taking a breath, like I've said so many
Matt Stagliano:times in so many other areas of my life, take a breath, kind of
Matt Stagliano:analyze it, and see where it's really coming from. That's the
Matt Stagliano:way that I deal with it all.
Nicole York:Oh, I find that really interesting Matt, and I
Nicole York:really like, questioning yourself on where that comes
Nicole York:from and recognizing, sometimes the root of of that is like
Nicole York:things that have kind of been programmed into us a long time
Nicole York:ago, that we're not consciously deciding is something we want to
Nicole York:be part of our experience. And also, I find it really
Nicole York:interesting that your comparison is not to other people's work
Nicole York:necessarily, but to the feeling that you got when you first did
Nicole York:something really well. And that excitement was there. And I'm
Nicole York:super interested later on to hear if other people also are
Nicole York:experiencing that and going, Oh, doesn't feel the same, which
Nicole York:must mean, it's not as good because that's, that's such an
Nicole York:interesting thing. And I wonder if that. I mean, this is, it's
Nicole York:not like these things need to be graded or weighed against one
Nicole York:another. But I wonder how that differs from those of us who
Nicole York:comparison means comparing our work to others?
Matt Stagliano:Well, I can I can add on to that. So it's a
Matt Stagliano:it's kind of a progression from that I get triggered by seeing
Matt Stagliano:other people's amazing work. And then I go, I'm not good enough.
Matt Stagliano:I used to be good, or at least I felt like I was good. I'm not
Matt Stagliano:good enough. I need to raise the bar. So it's always triggered,
Matt Stagliano:but I'm not saying I want to do that person's work, or I want to
Matt Stagliano:do their style or even you know, whatever, whatever creative
Matt Stagliano:outlet they're using. I don't want that. But I see something
Matt Stagliano:in them where they're happy. I wish I were happy with my work.
Matt Stagliano:Why can't I be happy with my work? Oh, and it just, you know,
Matt Stagliano:it keeps going inward rather than outward and connecting to
Matt Stagliano:their work? Does that make sense?
Nicole York:Yeah. 100%. And you just said something that I
Nicole York:immediately latched on to. They're happy. Is that something
Nicole York:that you are projecting with your, your feelings about their
Nicole York:work and making the assumption that they must feel that way
Nicole York:about their work as well?
Matt Stagliano:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, I see
Matt Stagliano:someone's highlight reel of their life, right? So if I
Matt Stagliano:don't, if I don't know, you, I'm seeing what you're proud of and
Matt Stagliano:what you're happy with. And unless you're putting that
Matt Stagliano:filter on, like an it could be bullshitting. You know, you're
Matt Stagliano:always, that's the story that I'm making up in my head, they
Matt Stagliano:must be really happy with their work and really proud of their
Matt Stagliano:work. And this must be not an issue for any of them. Awesome.
Nicole York:Ah, right. Okay. So the thing that you just said, is
Nicole York:so interesting to me, because there are these assumptions that
Nicole York:we make about what other people do think and feel that we
Nicole York:project. And some of those are, some of those are based on, I
Nicole York:think, some messed up ways that society functions. And let me
Nicole York:explain this. So we have this weird idea, corporately, that
Nicole York:something called normal exists, right? And most of us feel like
Nicole York:we don't quite fit into whatever normal is, right. We all think
Nicole York:that we're some kind of outlier somehow. And whether that is
Nicole York:because our family situation or neurodivergent, see, or, you
Nicole York:know, we have something going on. We're eccentric, whatever,
Nicole York:for whatever reason, we just feel like we don't quite fit
Nicole York:into that normal. But all of us feel fairly certain that normal
Nicole York:is a real thing. And I think what that does is kind of give
Nicole York:us this baseline we measure ourselves against that doesn't
Nicole York:actually exist. It's this imaginary thing. We've all kind
Nicole York:of decided that we believe in, even though it's not a thing,
Nicole York:normal is only really the average of all the weirdness,
Nicole York:right. Like when we when we weigh all the weirdness
Nicole York:together, normal falls somewhere in the middle. But it's not.
Nicole York:That's no one's personal experience. Because nobody, no,
Nicole York:it's not like the majority of people live in normal and a few
Nicole York:of us are on the outside. It's just a statistical anomaly,
Nicole York:right? So because we have this weird, corporate idea that
Nicole York:normal is a thing, or that happy is a thing. And we feel like we
Nicole York:fall outside of that somehow, not as happy as them, not as
Nicole York:normal as them, whatever not as it leads us to separate
Nicole York:ourselves. We feel like we are the one, the weird one, the only
Nicole York:one who is experiencing or feeling this thing. And so all
Nicole York:of the sudden, it's that feeling of otherness, and aloneness.
Nicole York:That's really the like the ultimate crux, right? It's
Nicole York:really the thing that hurts more than anything else because one
Nicole York:of the most deadly Things a human being can feel is alone,
Nicole York:lonely, separated other. This is the cause of much depression and
Nicole York:anxiety and substance abuse and a whole bunch of other things,
Nicole York:when we feel like we are somehow outside, and we've lost that
Nicole York:ability to connect, and be part of the hole. And I know that
Nicole York:this kind of might seem like it's going on a little bit of a
Nicole York:tangent, but I think we have to recognize that when we make
Nicole York:those assumptions, number one, it's weirdly kind of naturally
Nicole York:built into the way that we function as a society, I don't
Nicole York:know why we think that normal is a thing, but we do. And the
Nicole York:result of that is, we will often make the assumption that normal
Nicole York:is what other people experience, not what we experienced. And so
Nicole York:somehow, now we are outside of that experience, which then
Nicole York:leads to all the crummy shitty feelings, and all the behaviors,
Nicole York:the self medica Tory behaviors that we fall into. And we need
Nicole York:to recognize that that is a thing. And I'm not saying at all
Nicole York:that that's what you do, Matt, but when you said that, it just
Nicole York:made me realize all of a sudden, this propensity that we have,
Nicole York:and I think if we can notice, our notice the times that we
Nicole York:look at somebody else and say, Oh, they look so happy, they
Nicole York:must be thrilled with their work, they don't have the
Nicole York:problems I have, with not being good enough or whatever. We're
Nicole York:making something up that doesn't actually exist, because we don't
Nicole York:know, their experience. We don't know if they're trying to put a
Nicole York:brave face on it. They didn't love the shoot, but they shared
Nicole York:it anyway, because they needed something to share. And then
Nicole York:they say, Oh, yay, we don't know. We're projecting that
Nicole York:stuff. And when we do that, we're pushing ourselves into
Nicole York:that position of outsider. So maybe if we can recognize what
Nicole York:we're doing, when we start to do that, I wonder if we can kind of
Nicole York:short circuit that whole thought process and take away some of
Nicole York:the sting of well, we're really hurting ourselves, aren't we
Nicole York:when we do that? And maybe we maybe we don't have to, if we
Nicole York:recognize what we're doing
Nicole York:sorry, guys,
Matt Stagliano:I agree. wasn't gonna leave you hanging? I was
Matt Stagliano:just it was you landed the plane so nicely right there. I didn't
Matt Stagliano:want to disturb and I figured we would ask Becca what she thought
Bekka Bjorke:well, Becca thinks that the, the discussion
Bekka Bjorke:comparison, in regards to perfectionism is, is
Bekka Bjorke:interesting, because I don't really think that way,
Bekka Bjorke:personally, like, my struggles with perfectionism are all
Bekka Bjorke:definitely internal and based on my own standards and desires,
Bekka Bjorke:rather than looking at other artists. And I'm, in general,
Bekka Bjorke:like very much a follower of the school of thought that finished
Bekka Bjorke:is better than perfect. That's something done, okay. And
Bekka Bjorke:decently today is going to serve me a lot better than something
Bekka Bjorke:done perfectly next month, because it might be seem perfect
Bekka Bjorke:to me next month, but in a year from now, I'm probably going to
Bekka Bjorke:look at it and think that it's shit. And those standards are
Bekka Bjorke:always growing. And you know, what I think is good or perfect
Bekka Bjorke:is constantly changing. And, like, for me, a, I don't really
Bekka Bjorke:have kind of the privilege of time, a lot. And there's been a
Bekka Bjorke:lot of times where I've put something off because I couldn't
Bekka Bjorke:control my circumstances or control my environment, or, you
Bekka Bjorke:know, felt like the stars needed to align just right for me to do
Bekka Bjorke:something. And then I just never fucking did it. And that it's
Bekka Bjorke:been, you know, five years have passed, and I still haven't
Bekka Bjorke:fucking done it. And it's like, wow, what if I just did it, and
Bekka Bjorke:I did it not in the best, most perfect way, but I still would
Bekka Bjorke:have done it. And I still even if it was a failure, I still to
Bekka Bjorke:learn something. And so that's, that's kind of been my general
Bekka Bjorke:take on perfectionism. And I can't take the time and beat
Bekka Bjorke:myself up about it, because otherwise I will get nothing
Bekka Bjorke:done ever. And I can't do that. Because time is you know, find
Bekka Bjorke:that resource. And it's going and going and disappearing so
Bekka Bjorke:fast.
Nicole York:Oh, you just made the siren call of all the
Nicole York:parents out a period of rest. Okay, so first, I love the fact
Nicole York:that I'm really glad that you, you do follow that school of
Nicole York:thought and for folks who have never heard of the finished is
Nicole York:better than perfect. Can you explain that? And then I want to
Nicole York:ask you a couple questions about you said that your struggle does
Nicole York:not fall in comparing yourself to other people but in kind of
Nicole York:reaching your own standard. So I want to dig into that a little
Nicole York:bit more because I'm sure some folks in the audience suffer
Nicole York:with the same thing so or face the same Challenges. I'm trying
Nicole York:to take legal advice and remember how I word my things.
Nicole York:So,
Bekka Bjorke:yeah, well, I mean finished is better than perfect
Bekka Bjorke:is that it's pretty straightforward, right? I mean,
Bekka Bjorke:there's, especially when working with like, clients or anything,
Bekka Bjorke:right, and you have a deadline. And I'm sure each of us could
Bekka Bjorke:agonize for days and weeks and months over perfecting every
Bekka Bjorke:tiny last pixel on an image. But then it's not done, and it's not
Bekka Bjorke:going to get done, and you're dropping the ball on your work,
Bekka Bjorke:and you're not keeping up to their other people's
Bekka Bjorke:expectations, right. So you kind of have to manage what
Bekka Bjorke:expectations you need to meet. And honestly, like, a lot of
Bekka Bjorke:times, you know, as artists, we have a very, very high standards
Bekka Bjorke:for certain things, and the people we work with aren't even
Bekka Bjorke:going to notice those things at all. So as long as it's done,
Bekka Bjorke:then it's 1000 times better than it being perfect down to the
Bekka Bjorke:last pixel.
Nicole York:So much so much. There's so much Oh, so much. Oh,
Nicole York:I can hear myself. There you go. Um, okay. So really important
Nicole York:thing for us to remember. And something I think all of us
Nicole York:should try. When you get to that point where you recognize you're
Nicole York:agonizing. Remind yourself, that finished is better than perfect.
Nicole York:And I have worked with folks before, who basically told me,
Nicole York:Oh, you turned that in, you got that done. And I was kind of
Nicole York:like, Yeah, I mean, obviously, that's, you gave me the
Nicole York:assignment, I did the thing, and here you go. And then they've
Nicole York:said to me, you would not believe how many artists I tried
Nicole York:to work with, who just will never turn in the product.
Nicole York:Because they just don't feel like they made it. Or they, they
Nicole York:got to the point where they thought it's not good enough,
Nicole York:they're gonna call me on it, and then they'll never hire me
Nicole York:again, or, you know, whatever else it is that they're saying
Nicole York:in the head. And they told me, You would be surprised how many
Nicole York:people just can't turn it in, can't meet the deadline can't
Nicole York:hand things over. And that makes a difference. Because if we knew
Nicole York:how often the work that we see, the movies that we watched the
Nicole York:songs we listened to the art that we love, if we knew how
Nicole York:often those artists were like, Oh, my God, it's, it doesn't
Nicole York:reach the standard of perfection I have in my brain. So it's just
Nicole York:not worth anything. But they needed to make money. Or they
Nicole York:had a deadline for the movie, or whatever it was, that stuff got
Nicole York:done, you and I will never know the struggle that they went
Nicole York:through to release that product into the world. But we just fall
Nicole York:into that thing I was talking about earlier, where we make the
Nicole York:assumption, they must have stood back and said, Ah, Eureka, I
Nicole York:have done it, it is perfect. Here it goes out into existence
Nicole York:to please the world. And yet, that's probably nowhere close to
Nicole York:the reality of what they went through at the end, they
Nicole York:probably went well, I could stick around with it forever,
Nicole York:but good enough is good enough, and force themselves to turn the
Nicole York:thing over. So maybe if we recognize, most artists feel
Nicole York:that way, at least a little bit. They go, Oh, if I would have
Nicole York:moved the light two centimeters to the right, if I would have
Nicole York:put a fan in her hair, if I would have picked a different
Nicole York:shirt, or whatever, things would have been better. But you don't
Nicole York:know that. And nobody else does, either. So stop torturing
Nicole York:yourself with it. So is that at all Becca, similar to your
Nicole York:experience with your work if you're not comparing it to other
Nicole York:people, but to the own standards that you have set for yourself?
Nicole York:Is that at all kind of what you go through when you struggle
Nicole York:with those comparisons as related to perfectionism.
Bekka Bjorke:Um, I mean, I don't tend to compare, because I
Bekka Bjorke:will never be making art that's not my own art, right? Like, I
Bekka Bjorke:can look at other art and be like, Damn, that is awesome.
Bekka Bjorke:Like, I want to make things like that. And the only way to go and
Bekka Bjorke:make things like that, that are beca flavored is to make things
Bekka Bjorke:that are shitty first, until I could get better at them. So I
Bekka Bjorke:mean, I just I don't really feel intimidated by other artists.
Bekka Bjorke:And I know like I definitely have I know what that feels
Bekka Bjorke:like. And I know it's a very common feeling. But just I mean,
Bekka Bjorke:realistically, I can't make any art that's not mine. Right? And
Bekka Bjorke:so I can't obsess over how good someone else is. I can only
Bekka Bjorke:obsess over how good I can potentially be.
Nicole York:Right? Because you said it earlier that it's your
Nicole York:own standards that you can Yeah, and I
Bekka Bjorke:mean, those standards are often higher than
Bekka Bjorke:the others. that comes out of my fingertips.
Nicole York:How do you deal with that?
Unknown:i In the same way, it just, it's just got to get done.
Unknown:It's just got to get done.
Bekka Bjorke:I mean, it's sheer willpower, and I don't know,
Bekka Bjorke:spite for the universe like I can do to make everything
Bekka Bjorke:perfect. It's just not a realistic goal. And I, if I keep
Bekka Bjorke:that as the goal for every piece that I'm not going to make any
Bekka Bjorke:progress, like a like, like learning 3d, for instance, I
Bekka Bjorke:think I first really wanted to start learning 3d modeling,
Bekka Bjorke:maybe like, a long time ago, I was probably like, 23 years old.
Bekka Bjorke:And I think, oh, yeah, I can do it a couple months. Like maybe
Bekka Bjorke:we'll you know, when I finally get a vacation or get a better
Bekka Bjorke:computer, or, you know, whatever, bla bla bla bla bla
Bekka Bjorke:bullshit. And then I didn't even actually attempt anything until
Bekka Bjorke:I was like 2829 years old. And that was, you know, six,
Bekka Bjorke:whatever years wasted, that I could have been progressing
Bekka Bjorke:towards those high standards that I have, that I didn't
Bekka Bjorke:utilize, because I didn't think that everything was lined up the
Bekka Bjorke:way it needed to be to be perfect. And if I just got and
Bekka Bjorke:done the thing, and even done the thing badly and taken, you
Bekka Bjorke:know, the bad as a way to learn, I could be so much further in my
Bekka Bjorke:own personal art and in my career, then by dragging my feet
Bekka Bjorke:because things aren't perfect, and art wouldn't have been
Bekka Bjorke:perfect.
Nicole York:Perfect, I love that. I'm not even going to add
Nicole York:anything. I think that was a really fantastic example. And I
Nicole York:hope folks are listening so far, because we've got some really
Nicole York:great advice for those times when we're dealing with feelings
Nicole York:of perfectionism, or comparison, or just being not good enough,
Nicole York:not reaching the standard. So what are you gonna do about it?
Nicole York:Well, you have two options, right? You go, or you quit. And
Nicole York:then recognizing where that comes from? Do we have false
Nicole York:ideas in our head, about what normal is, what good is what
Nicole York:perfect is what other people think of work or what other
Nicole York:artists feel when they release their work. And then recognizing
Nicole York:that as much as you try, you can only ever make work, and should
Nicole York:only ever make work. That is you. If your goal is to be an
Nicole York:artist, it's always going to be flavored with you. And you
Nicole York:should not be trying to reach for standards that are not your
Nicole York:own. And you should be doing some expectation management on
Nicole York:your own behalf. The same that we would do for our clients, let
Nicole York:yourself know beforehand. Look, this is gonna be ours. And it
Nicole York:might be kind of shitty, at first, and that's okay. Maybe
Nicole York:we're still moving towards the thing. And remember that chances
Nicole York:are the folks that you're working with, and four won't see
Nicole York:the things that you see. Because they're not you. They didn't
Nicole York:make the art, they don't know the struggle that went into it.
Nicole York:And so all the assumptions you have in your head about what
Nicole York:they're gonna think or feel are not even valid. They're your
Nicole York:projections. So keeping those things in mind, I would love to
Nicole York:hear from the rest of the audience this morning. Do you
Nicole York:struggle with perfectionism or comparison? And if you do if
Nicole York:those are challenges that you have faced, we'd love to hear
Nicole York:from you. And if you've overcome them, how did you do it? Tell us
Nicole York:your secrets. explained to us. You've got a couple hands up
Nicole York:there. Erica and Carolyn. Hello. Good morning, ladies. Carolyn,
Nicole York:would love to hear from you. I know you had your hand up
Nicole York:earlier as well. So share with us.
Carolyn Gallo:Good morning, I can relate to what Becky was
Carolyn Gallo:saying we're I don't compare myself to others as much as I do
Carolyn Gallo:to my own abilities. And my comparison or perfectionism
Carolyn Gallo:problem is more situational. In that I often will make excuses
Carolyn Gallo:like well, if I had the perfect studio, or the perfect gear or a
Carolyn Gallo:second income or this or that or whatever, then I would be this
Carolyn Gallo:amazing, successful photographer and because I don't have those
Carolyn Gallo:things. I'm making excuses not to go for it. And that is one of
Carolyn Gallo:my biggest blocks that I've been dealing with. And I'm not sure
Carolyn Gallo:how to how to how to not be that way. I'm not sure but that's a
Carolyn Gallo:struggle for me. is more of a situational perfectionism. If
Carolyn Gallo:only my situation were different, then I would be a
Carolyn Gallo:different photographer.
Nicole York:Oh, Carolyn, you woman after my own heart. I
Nicole York:know, I know the Struggle well. I have been intimately
Nicole York:acquainted with that, as a mom, trying to make a business work
Nicole York:having kidlets at home, being on a, you know, a single income
Nicole York:with my husband. And so having to kind of scrape and scratch my
Nicole York:way up and watching my peers and thinking, How wonderfully
Nicole York:they're doing? And how, if I only had the freedom that they
Nicole York:had, if I had a better camera, if I had a studio, if I had
Nicole York:cetera, et cetera, et cetera, then maybe I could be doing that
Nicole York:work, getting that client bidding for that job, whatever
Nicole York:it is, and not begrudging them, of course, any of that, but just
Nicole York:recognizing the limitations of my own situation, and wondering
Nicole York:what things would be like, if I didn't have those. So I, first,
Nicole York:I feel you girl, I empathize deeply. And so there's a few
Nicole York:things at least that I do, but I would love to hear from the
Nicole York:other panelists, y'all. Do you ever fall into this? This
Nicole York:challenge? And if you do, how do you work yourself out of
Nicole York:it? Nobody, huh? Y'all are rock stars, okay. Girl,
Cat Ford-Coates:I've definitely fallen into the gear trap for
Cat Ford-Coates:shoe or like, oh, well, I'm only shooting on, you know, a Canon D
Cat Ford-Coates:five d mark two, right? And I shot on that motherfucker for
Cat Ford-Coates:years. Right? And I'd be like, well, I could go and do and did
Cat Ford-Coates:it at all. And it really isn't until you kind of beaten the
Cat Ford-Coates:gear to death to where you can really execute with that gear.
Cat Ford-Coates:Inside and out. Eyes closed. Do you really need to uplevel the
Cat Ford-Coates:gear like I've been sitting on? Like, do I go mirrorless for the
Cat Ford-Coates:last like six months? Like why cat? Is it really necessary? No.
Cat Ford-Coates:Could I do X y&z? Oh, they can produce that because you know,
Cat Ford-Coates:their camera body is Rockstar or whatever, or they're using 27
Cat Ford-Coates:lights, like who gives a shit? Like, make what you want to
Cat Ford-Coates:make. And when you find that you're in a space where you
Cat Ford-Coates:cannot execute, because of those limitations. Cool. Then it's
Cat Ford-Coates:time to move forward into into other things. But it's not like
Cat Ford-Coates:that, that gears me I have to like smack my hand and be like,
Cat Ford-Coates:no cat, you don't need to go and spend $9,000 on X, Y or Z, just
Cat Ford-Coates:because you want it because somebody else produced X, Y or Z
Cat Ford-Coates:with that thing. That doesn't mean I can't try and create
Cat Ford-Coates:something with that as an inspiration. It just means like,
Cat Ford-Coates:no, just stay in your lane. Like and my accountant tells me that
Cat Ford-Coates:too.
Nicole York:Should we all have such wonderful accountants who
Nicole York:control our impulses? Anybody else has anybody else kind of
Nicole York:struggled with this situational comparison where you feel like
Nicole York:if you just had x, if you just get your hands on that studio
Nicole York:space or better lights or whatever it is, then you'd be
Nicole York:making the work that you want to make
Matt Stagliano:100% Sorry, Becca, but yeah, I was Nicole. I
Matt Stagliano:wasn't leaving you hanging a minute ago. I was doing what I
Matt Stagliano:always do. I was talking to you did microphone, and I'm going
Matt Stagliano:Why is she sick? Oh, son of up. And then cat summed up
Matt Stagliano:everything that I was gonna say, Carolyn? Yeah, for me. I had all
Matt Stagliano:those feelings. And I spent all the money and I got the studio
Matt Stagliano:and I got all the lights. And now I shoot in an eight by eight
Matt Stagliano:corner with a lot of natural light, maybe one strobe every
Matt Stagliano:now and again, on a consumer level camera, not even a pro
Matt Stagliano:level camera. You don't need all the stuff, but I thought you
Matt Stagliano:did. And my bank account really wishes I had all that money back
Matt Stagliano:from all those years of chasing something that all I really
Matt Stagliano:realized I needed was just a little bit more confidence. That
Matt Stagliano:was it.
Nicole York:Love it. Becca. Let's hear from you too. Yeah.
Bekka Bjorke:I mean, I definitely know how that feels.
Bekka Bjorke:I think a lot of my inability to manage that is like from
Bekka Bjorke:Starting photography and just art in general, like really
Bekka Bjorke:young. And like, I was really down and out, I had jack shit.
Bekka Bjorke:And so like, there were periods where I like wanted to take
Bekka Bjorke:photos, and I didn't even have a camera. So like, I was taking
Bekka Bjorke:photos on my terrible webcam just because I wanted to create
Bekka Bjorke:photos, and I was recognizing what my limitations were, I have
Bekka Bjorke:a camera, I don't have enough money to buy a camera. So how
Bekka Bjorke:could I possibly make art? Well, I have a shitty webcam. So what
Bekka Bjorke:can I do with what I do have? And just the entire mindsets
Bekka Bjorke:really stuck with me? And so like, yes, what I love to buy a
Bekka Bjorke:new camera? Absolutely. Would I love to have more studio space?
Bekka Bjorke:Absolutely. Would I like a better computer? I mean, not
Bekka Bjorke:really, because I just spent a lot of money on a new computer.
Bekka Bjorke:But in general, again, I know what it feels like 100 100%. And
Bekka Bjorke:I put things off with that reasoning. But there's ways to
Bekka Bjorke:create fantastic art that gets what you want to get across
Bekka Bjorke:without those tools. So really looking at like, what is the
Bekka Bjorke:purpose of your art? You know, what is the message you want to
Bekka Bjorke:tell? You can do that with very, very few tools. And a, you know,
Bekka Bjorke:you unless you're actively trying to show off your
Bekka Bjorke:technical prowess, like you don't need the best of the best
Bekka Bjorke:of those tools. And again, recognizing things, the tools to
Bekka Bjorke:get the job done. So you need what you need to get the
Bekka Bjorke:specific job done,
Nicole York:if that makes sense. Oh, yes. And I think I
Nicole York:think you hit the nail. So it's really interesting the the path
Nicole York:that this conversation took, and I think you hit the nail on the
Nicole York:head as far as gear is concerned. One of the important
Nicole York:things I think, for us to remember is that we somehow do
Nicole York:have this in our head that if I could get the Pro Photo lights,
Nicole York:right, or if I could afford the etc, then oh, then. But in fact,
Nicole York:the reason that lights like that really do exist is not because
Nicole York:somehow the quality of the light coming from them just supersedes
Nicole York:all other life. It does not, it's because when you are
Nicole York:shooting things, for clients, you need to work fast, you need
Nicole York:to have a fast recycle time, you need to have consistent white
Nicole York:balance across all the images, your colors need to stay the
Nicole York:same. Like there are all of these small technical things
Nicole York:that only matter in certain situations that for most of us,
Nicole York:we will never actually come in contact with most of us will be
Nicole York:beautifully, perfectly fine with an alien be working in the
Nicole York:studio doing the thing, and making gorgeous work. So that's
Nicole York:really the question that I asked myself often is, when I look
Nicole York:back at some of the art that has touched me deeply, what did
Nicole York:those people have at their disposal? When I look back at
Nicole York:early photographs, and I'm thinking about the fact that
Nicole York:this person was working with technology, that my phone
Nicole York:supersedes by leaps and bounds. No Excuse me.
Robert:Sorry, finish.
Nicole York:Hang in there for just a second. You know, that I
Nicole York:have at my fingertips, all of this ability to do amazing
Nicole York:things. And yet people have been creating art that stands the
Nicole York:test of time, often with less than I have. And and it's art
Nicole York:that still touches me and still moves me and still, you know,
Nicole York:retains its its vigor. And then I go man. So what I'm really
Nicole York:doing is justifying why I'm not trying. And I'm justifying
Nicole York:keeping myself in my safe space by using the gear as Escape
Nicole York:Goat, right? I'm going well, I can't make that because so that
Nicole York:I don't have to try and fail because when I fail, then I can
Nicole York:blame it on the fact that I don't have the things so for me,
Nicole York:that's really the way that I deal with that struggle, Carolyn
Nicole York:and then also reminding myself that my I can only walk my own
Nicole York:path. And I don't know what other people had to do to get to
Nicole York:the point where they have that stuff. Like they might I maybe I
Nicole York:spent five years on the struggle bus, trying to scrape up the
Nicole York:money I needed to be able to do whatever they might have spent
Nicole York:10 They might have spent, I don't know. And I don't know
Nicole York:that their work necessarily got any better either. I haven't
Nicole York:seen their early work, I might just be making these
Nicole York:assumptions. So I have to remind myself that each person's story
Nicole York:is their own and I can only walk in mind and that I can't use the
Nicole York:not have as an excuse not to do because I can't justify not
Nicole York:trying I'm either going to do this thing, or I'm not going to
Nicole York:do it. And that's kind of that's kind of, for me how I deal with
Nicole York:it when I start feeling that way, which I have done lots and
Nicole York:often, and had to fight, fight myself, because I'm really good
Nicole York:at feeling sorry for myself. It's one of my main talents. So
Nicole York:I'm not saying that you do, but I definitely do. Alright, so I
Nicole York:want to be able to get some replies from you. I'm sure, you
Nicole York:probably have thought yourself down these paths. Anyway. And
Nicole York:then make sure that we hear from Erica and then Robert as well.
Nicole York:And I see jeans got his hand up, so walk around him, too. So
Nicole York:Carolyn wants you to get a chance to reply to everybody
Nicole York:who's kind of shared how they deal with the situation, and
Nicole York:then make sure we hear from Erica.
Carolyn Gallo:Oh, no, I appreciate all of this. And I
Carolyn Gallo:know that I'm just being a whiny bitch. But you've all baby.
Carolyn Gallo:It's, it's very helpful. When you hear Hey. And I appreciate
Carolyn Gallo:the responses I really do.
Nicole York:I'm so glad to hear it. And I feel yeah, sometimes
Nicole York:just telling myself that you are being a whiny, little bit. Like,
Nicole York:okay, fine. Sometimes kicking your own self in the butt a
Nicole York:little bit helps. All right, Eric, I want to hear from you.
Nicole York:And then Robert energy.
Erika:All right. I'm on the road to Nashville today. So
Erika:hopefully you can hear me, let me know if you can't. But I've
Erika:got a couple of things on this, I'm definitely feel the same way
Erika:as Becca, like, just get it done, just swing the bat, I
Erika:myself have acquired a lot, a lot of equipment, and I can tell
Erika:you that the equipment doesn't make a difference, it is my
Erika:failures that have propelled my skill forward. So every time you
Erika:swing the bat, and every time you fail, it's an opportunity to
Erika:grow. So, you know, so don't be afraid to swing the bat because
Erika:it's just, it's just gonna make you better. And then secondly,
Erika:I've learned the art of giving myself grace. When I do fail,
Erika:it's, it's okay. Like I said, it's a learning experience. It's
Erika:not. Not that I'm a bad person, or I'm an awful artist, or you
Erika:know, it's just the best I could do with the resources I had at
Erika:that time. And, you know, what can I do to make it better? So
Erika:those are my my two cents on that.
Nicole York:Love it. Love it. Love it. G Robert, go ahead.
Robert:Okay, then, since I'm the old part of the group today,
Robert:I was shooting with film before digital ever arrived. And of
Robert:course, I did go digital long before anybody else. I started
Robert:with a Coolpix 950. But I keep gotten better equipment, because
Robert:not because I just needed a new camera. It's because the
Robert:equipment gets better every generation. It has better
Robert:detail. It has better stuff. It's not just because it's a
Robert:better camera. It's a new, better camera because it
Robert:technology has getting caught up to it. And, you know, I know my
Robert:wife's going out with that camera do that the other one did
Robert:a lot. Because they get more depth and get more control. It
Robert:works better. I'm not quite the artist, I am a portrait
Robert:photographer. And I really need a high quality image, even
Robert:though I do soften them down because people don't want to be
Robert:that sharp, because oh my god reality struck. But I've been
Robert:struggling with this for 30 years. And I have friends who
Robert:make a lot more money than me. But I don't think there's there
Robert:were about basically even it's more than the marketing and
Robert:being able to be proud of who you are and not be that little
Robert:wimpy guy in the corner, which is me who's afraid to get out
Robert:there and go, I'm really good. So with that, but I love my
Robert:equipment. I do have the studio, I do shoot with six lights in
Robert:the studio, because especially when digital first started. If
Robert:you didn't light it, you didn't see it. It's locked up. And now
Robert:you have a little more control. With that I'll shut up.
Nicole York:Yeah, I think you know, Robert, you really just
Nicole York:kind of illustrated an important part of the point that Becca was
Nicole York:making which is you get what you need to get the job done right.
Nicole York:And each phase of photography over the years has required
Nicole York:different things. From photographers. And I think the
Nicole York:important thing is that we make sure we take the time to
Nicole York:recognize when those changes do actually need to be made. And I
Nicole York:remember thinking, I remember thinking to myself for a long
Nicole York:time when I was shooting on a crop sensor camera, if I just
Nicole York:had a full frame camera, everything would change. But I
Nicole York:wasn't working in situations that necess necessarily required
Nicole York:a full frame camera until a little bit later, when I was
Nicole York:shooting in confined spaces, and darker situations when I was
Nicole York:shooting weddings and receptions. And then I went,
Nicole York:Okay, so at this point, I can't make what I want to make with
Nicole York:the gear that I have. But I knew enough about what I was doing by
Nicole York:then to recognize how things needed to change in order for me
Nicole York:to get what I wanted. And you recognize, there's certain
Nicole York:things I need for the control that I want, like the depth, and
Nicole York:the clearness, the clarity, all of those things. So you get the
Nicole York:gear that matches what you need. But sometimes, when we can't
Nicole York:afford to move forward, I think we have to remind ourselves that
Nicole York:people have been making really incredible pieces of art for a
Nicole York:long time with less than what we have now. So if you do have to
Nicole York:wait a while before you get yourself the gear that you need
Nicole York:to make the work you want. Just remember that there's a lot
Nicole York:you're going to take from making the most of what you have a lot
Nicole York:of experiences that you're going to get, actually want to use a
Nicole York:friend of mine to illustrate this. So if you've never heard
Nicole York:of Lilian Lu, I encourage you to go look her up. She's a
Nicole York:wonderful artist. Her work is fantastical and dreamy and
Nicole York:imaginative and will immediately kind of transport you away into
Nicole York:fairyland. She does not own studio lights, I think maybe
Nicole York:actually she has one now. Most of her lights are most of her
Nicole York:photographs are shot in whatever light she happens to have
Nicole York:available. So if she's outside, or if she can get a window or
Nicole York:something like that she's shooting often unavailable
Nicole York:lighting. And because of that, she has taught herself
Nicole York:techniques that only she uses, because she was compensating for
Nicole York:the places and the things that she could not do. And as a
Nicole York:result of that, her work is highly specific to her. I mean
Nicole York:highly specific to her. If you go scrolling through 1000
Nicole York:images, and you see one of Lillian's you're not going to
Nicole York:mistake it. But it's also because she didn't have those
Nicole York:things. And so the processing that she did, compensated for
Nicole York:that which over time has turned into her style. And issue were
Nicole York:to start bringing in lights on the regular, it would
Nicole York:necessitate some changes in how she approaches her work, which
Nicole York:I'm not saying would be better or worse. In either case, it
Nicole York:just means that dealing with those creative restrictions, has
Nicole York:led to her approaching her work in a way that is very much her
Nicole York:own. And so when we're stuck in those places where we need
Nicole York:better gear, or we think if we had the better gear, we would be
Nicole York:making better work, there's a chance that that could be true
Nicole York:if you're coming up against restrictions that don't allow
Nicole York:you to do the things you want to do. But remember that while
Nicole York:you're in that place of not having those things, and you're
Nicole York:having to come up against those restrictions, that is where
Nicole York:creativity will flourish, the absolute most because creativity
Nicole York:is problem solving, and taking disparate pieces of information
Nicole York:and combining them together into new things. And when you have
Nicole York:restrictions, that's when you have to come up with creative
Nicole York:solutions. So if that's the spot that you're in right now, don't
Nicole York:be afraid. Push yourself. Try to make what you want. Anyway, try
Nicole York:to think your way through it. How can you compensate for what
Nicole York:you don't have? And I think you'll be surprised at how far
Nicole York:you will be able to grow even within the limitations that you
Nicole York:have. And then of course, Robert is absolutely right. When you
Nicole York:need the new gear for the thing that you need, you need it. But
Nicole York:don't be afraid if you're stuck waiting. Okay, so I want to make
Nicole York:sure we hear from Jean and then MJ
Gene Sizemore:Well geez, Nicole, you always steal my
Gene Sizemore:thunder make my point GET to get out of my head what I wanted to
Gene Sizemore:say was, you know, I was I was listening to Cat talk about
Gene Sizemore:gear. And then I listened to Robert but but the points that
Gene Sizemore:you just made really encapsulate kind of my feelings on this
Gene Sizemore:subject I first seven years up until the pandemic kind of
Gene Sizemore:derailed things for them. I was the camp. Instructor for
Gene Sizemore:photography for the Girl Scouts here. In Virginia, and one of
Gene Sizemore:the big complaints that I used to hear all the time at the
Gene Sizemore:beginning of the class was that their mom or dad wouldn't let
Gene Sizemore:them bring the big fancy camera to camp. And so they were stuck
Gene Sizemore:with these little point shoots. And, you know, the camp
Gene Sizemore:director, you know, always asked me, you know, you know, should
Gene Sizemore:we, you know, make the, you know, should we put in the
Gene Sizemore:brochure that the kids need to bring in a DSLR, and all this
Gene Sizemore:kind of stuff. And I always resisted that, because, you
Gene Sizemore:know, my job was to teach them photography. And that doesn't
Gene Sizemore:necessarily mean, teach them how to shoot a DSLR. And I've
Gene Sizemore:thought a lot about this. In fact, one of my very first kind
Gene Sizemore:of embarrassing YouTube videos was on this subject, but it was
Gene Sizemore:more from the standpoint of shooting on manual, but I think
Gene Sizemore:that this mentality applies very nicely to the gear question as
Gene Sizemore:well. Because I've found that a lot of beginning photographers,
Gene Sizemore:and a lot of really creative people who, who really love to
Gene Sizemore:create new have amazing ideas in their head, but they just
Gene Sizemore:haven't really figured out what medium they want, or they can
Gene Sizemore:express that creativity and are picking up cameras, and they're
Gene Sizemore:getting online, and they're getting bullied by people to get
Gene Sizemore:off auto, or you know, to shoot fully manual, you're not really
Gene Sizemore:a photographer until you shoot manual. And I've heard this so
Gene Sizemore:many times. And what I've told people, beginning photographers,
Gene Sizemore:and mostly kids in the circles that I run in with the Girl
Gene Sizemore:Scouts and stuff, I've always said, you know, don't be in such
Gene Sizemore:a rush to get, you know, to manual settings on your camera.
Gene Sizemore:And I think this argument holds also, you know, to not be in
Gene Sizemore:such a rush to get a big fancy, expensive camera, I think that
Gene Sizemore:there is a huge benefit to limiting yourself to, to the, to
Gene Sizemore:the constraints of either limited gear, or uncomplicated
Gene Sizemore:camera settings, when you're first starting out, because
Gene Sizemore:there are so many things that are equally if not more
Gene Sizemore:important in the art of photography than just getting
Gene Sizemore:the settings on your camera, right? I mean, how many of us
Gene Sizemore:have seen photographers that seem to do really well getting
Gene Sizemore:great exposure, but their composition is a little weird,
Gene Sizemore:or their subject isn't really standing out? Or, I mean,
Gene Sizemore:there's there's so many other aspects, all the things that we
Gene Sizemore:talked about the entire month on visual literacy has nothing to
Gene Sizemore:do with cameras setting. Well, I mean, some of it had a little
Gene Sizemore:bit to do with camera settings, you know, depth of field and
Gene Sizemore:focus and things like that. But by and large, creativity doesn't
Gene Sizemore:start with a big expensive camera in manual camera
Gene Sizemore:settings.
Gene Sizemore:I think that Nicole, you said it beautifully when you say that
Gene Sizemore:creativity is problem solving. And when you're limited by a
Gene Sizemore:point and shoot camera, or, you know, an inability to really
Gene Sizemore:wrap your head around the exposure triangle. You know, I
Gene Sizemore:feel really bad when people get discouraged and put the camera
Gene Sizemore:down because they can't figure it out. Or they give up because
Gene Sizemore:they can't afford a big fancy expensive camera. Because that's
Gene Sizemore:not photography. I mean, photography has been done, you
Gene Sizemore:know, all the way back to pinhole cameras. In fact, I
Gene Sizemore:would love to make a pinhole camera and matter of fact, I'm
Gene Sizemore:shooting my grandfather's 1949 rain across 335 millimeter black
Gene Sizemore:and white film camera right now. Because I enjoy the challenge.
Gene Sizemore:And I think that that's really kind of where I where I come to
Gene Sizemore:when we talk about this because, you know, I I enjoy dialing back
Gene Sizemore:from the gear dialing back from the complexity. I love exploring
Gene Sizemore:the complexity. I'm a technologist that was my career.
Gene Sizemore:That's my profession. So I love the technology. I love getting
Gene Sizemore:new software and new gear. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm
Gene Sizemore:tinkering with it. But I love going back to the basics. I love
Gene Sizemore:shooting film, I love, you know, keeping things simple. And I
Gene Sizemore:love focusing on other aspects of creativity that don't
Gene Sizemore:necessarily have to do with the gear or the settings. And so
Gene Sizemore:that's just, that's what I wanted to say. Thanks.
Nicole York:I think that was that was pretty, pretty
Nicole York:fantastic team. And I think you're right, there's a lot to
Nicole York:be gained just from going back. And I know David has talked
Nicole York:about this before as well. For those of you who who don't know,
Nicole York:David Parrish, he's the one of the owners of pro at you. You
Nicole York:talked about this as well about how giving yourself creative
Nicole York:restrictions really causes a flourishing in in creativity and
Nicole York:in the way you think and it's absolutely an exercise worth
Nicole York:doing, if you can, and I know we're coming toward the end of
Nicole York:that First of all want to make sure we hear from MJ. Hello,
Nicole York:lovely, what are your thoughts this morning,
Unknown:I just want to second everything, you guys said Jean
Unknown:just did what you did and covered everything that I was
Unknown:gonna say. And I then it was even better because I was able
Unknown:to take notes and kind of put it into words, because I'm not
Unknown:always great at putting things into words. So as I'm taking
Unknown:notes to kind of gather my thoughts, I'm also you know, at
Unknown:the same time journaling. And for that reason, I'm really
Unknown:grateful thank you so much for like, sharing all your
Unknown:difficulties. Because once we kind of get over one of these
Unknown:things in our head, I know that I tend to go through the next
Unknown:thing where I've got the gear, now I need to challenge myself
Unknown:or I don't have the gear, and I'm not necessarily learning
Unknown:what I want to learn right now. But that doesn't mean there
Unknown:isn't another part of the business that I really will
Unknown:benefit from learning at this time. By using my creativity and
Unknown:and compassion because it is hard to create the stuff no
Unknown:matter what your mental block is, or what mental spiral I tend
Unknown:to get into at the time. It's very nice and refreshing to see
Unknown:that other people do the same things. We're not always right,
Unknown:in the same part of learning and pushing through these barriers.
Unknown:But it's, it's good when you can step away from it for a few
Unknown:minutes and see that this is a process I've been through before
Unknown:and, and recognize it and I love love love at the beginning when
Unknown:you guys were saying what am I going to do stop like, am I am I
Unknown:just to get I'm not going to walk into this group of art
Unknown:artists? Like, no, I'm not. Like I think that was hilarious.
Unknown:Because like really am I just am I just gonna stop because I feel
Unknown:this way. Thanks. But, um, and that was that was perfect. And
Unknown:I, I feel like I'm gonna be I'm gonna go process that on the
Unknown:poll and put off what I really need to do, which is editing,
Unknown:and say, What are you going to do stop, like, you just you're
Unknown:gonna give up and go sit in bed, which is totally puzzled. But I
Unknown:know I will. If I do that I won't sit in bed for very long.
Unknown:So thank you. I greatly appreciate it.
Nicole York:Ah, that makes me so happy to hear. And yeah, I
Nicole York:think if if I had to leave everybody with one thing, at the
Nicole York:end of this week, it would be to remind you guys that you're not
Nicole York:alone. You are not alone, all of us struggle. These with these
Nicole York:challenges all of us face, perfectionism or comparison, or,
Nicole York:you know, even the situational comparison, if I just had the
Nicole York:thing, or if I could only get my hands on studio or, you know, if
Nicole York:I if I didn't have my time eaten up by work, or kids or whatever
Nicole York:it is. The last thing I want you to think is that you are the
Nicole York:only person fighting this battle, because you're not. We
Nicole York:all do we have all been there. You are not some strange person
Nicole York:who is the only one who's ever experienced these struggles. The
Nicole York:rest of us are right there with you, cheering you on, because
Nicole York:we've been there and we've done it and you can get past that
Nicole York:thing. So don't feel alone. With any of the stuff we've talked
Nicole York:about this week, any of these internal battles. We have all
Nicole York:fought them. And you've heard us over this last few days
Nicole York:discussing our own struggles. So you know firsthand that we have
Nicole York:them. So we're there with you. And guess what all of your
Nicole York:favorite photographers, all of your favorite artists, they had
Nicole York:them too and they still do. So they can be proof for us that it
Nicole York:is possible to make great art to have a fantastic business to be
Nicole York:a wonderful artist and educator and everything else, despite the
Nicole York:fact that we are all just a little bit crazy. And remember
Nicole York:that normal doesn't exist, please normal is not a thing.
Nicole York:Don't compare yourself to an idea of normal because it's not
Nicole York:real. There is no such thing as perfect. That's not a standard
Nicole York:you can ever reach. So huge thanks to everybody who
Nicole York:contributed to the conversation this week who was vulnerable and
Nicole York:came up and shared your struggles. You all are amazing.
Nicole York:This place this room this group would not be what it is without
Nicole York:having you guys here. So I can't tell you how much I appreciate
Nicole York:you. I hope everybody has an incredible weekend. Go do
Nicole York:something fun, get some rest. Go Go make something amazing. And
Nicole York:hopefully we will see everybody brighten early Monday morning at
Nicole York:7am Mountain Standard Time at 6am for the West Coast and 9am
Nicole York:for the East Coast afternoon for our friends overseas. In the
Nicole York:meantime, guys. Have a good one.
Matt Stagliano:Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse
Matt Stagliano:discussion moderated by all of us at the artist Forge. We hope
Matt Stagliano:you found the information useful and that it helps you gain a
Matt Stagliano:little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft for more
Matt Stagliano:episodes please join us each weekday on clubhouse or visit
Matt Stagliano:the artists forge.com and go make something incredible
