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Published on:

23rd Feb 2022

What Are You Selling?

What we sell as artists is so much more than the physical product, it is the experience our customers have when they interact with our work. Before we can sell work successfully, we must know what benefit our customers receive from that experience, and what physical or digital product best helps deliver that experience.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How to figure out what you're actually selling
  • How to choose products and services that support the core of your brand & business model
  • The importance of knowing yourself and choosing products you are passionate about
  • How listening to client preferences can help you narrow down your products

If you want to learn more about Mastering the Business of Art you can find the start of the series here: https://morning-walk-with-the-artists-forge.captivate.fm/episode/beliefs-about-money

Learn more about how to think like an artist on The Artist's Forge, and join our growing community of artists on Facebook.

Want to know more about the hosts?

Nicole York

Matt Stagliano

Cat Ford-Coates

Bassam Sabbagh

Bekka Bjorke

Transcript
Matt Stagliano:

Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being

Matt Stagliano:

part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who

Matt Stagliano:

help each other think like an artist. By discussing creativity

Matt Stagliano:

as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone

Matt Stagliano:

has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need

Matt Stagliano:

some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What

Matt Stagliano:

you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily

Matt Stagliano:

discussions on the clubhouse app. If you like what you hear,

Matt Stagliano:

I encourage you to join our private Facebook group, or visit

Matt Stagliano:

us on the web at the artist forge COMM Now on to the show.

Nicole York:

Welcome to morning walk with the artists Forge. My

Nicole York:

name is Nicole York, I am your host, and today we are talking

Nicole York:

about business, the business of art. Of course, we have covered

Nicole York:

a lot of ground so far. And today we're going to be talking

Nicole York:

about how do we figure out what we're selling. And this includes

Nicole York:

several things, not only the true nature of what people are

Nicole York:

buying from us the psychological emotional needs that we're

Nicole York:

filling, but the actual product itself the physical product, how

Nicole York:

do we figure out what we're going to sell? Are we even going

Nicole York:

to sell physical products, or are we going to sell digital

Nicole York:

products and services, a lot of things to figure out when we try

Nicole York:

to think about building a business and how we are going to

Nicole York:

service people how we are going to serve them. And the first

Nicole York:

thing I think we need to keep in mind as we are building the

Nicole York:

foundations of this business is that what people are buying from

Nicole York:

us is primarily psychological and emotional. They are getting

Nicole York:

a feeling for a, a something it's hard to describe. When you

Nicole York:

look think about your very favorite photograph that you

Nicole York:

have hanging up on the walls in your home, or your very favorite

Nicole York:

painting. And when you look at it makes you feel some kind of

Nicole York:

way. Maybe it gives you a sense of peace, maybe it's a sense of

Nicole York:

nostalgia, maybe when you look at that work, you feel a sense

Nicole York:

of accomplishment because you were able to afford an expensive

Nicole York:

piece from a fantastic artist, maybe it reminds you of a home

Nicole York:

that you own somewhere, or a place that you visited, maybe it

Nicole York:

is the memory of your baby being that age or a time in your life

Nicole York:

that you'll never get back there all of these different things

Nicole York:

that our work gives to us. And that is primarily the thing that

Nicole York:

we are selling. When you look at that piece. Maybe it just really

Nicole York:

as the dude would say it ties the room together. Or maybe it

Nicole York:

just gives that emotional grounding connection to the

Nicole York:

place. Maybe it's your ability to remember your mom, there's a

Nicole York:

lot of things that we get from the artwork that we collect, or

Nicole York:

that we have an AR home. Whether that is albums, and I will tell

Nicole York:

you, my kids love our photo albums, they will get those

Nicole York:

things, they will sit together on the couch, they will go

Nicole York:

through them, they will point things and remember things and

Nicole York:

it's really beautiful to watch that connection. That is what

Nicole York:

I'm buying when I purchase an album, I'm not buying the paper

Nicole York:

and the ink and our clients aren't either. So I think that

Nicole York:

is the first thing we need to realize. And keep in mind, when

Nicole York:

it comes to asking ourselves, what am I going to sell? Well,

Nicole York:

first, you are meeting that psychological, emotional need.

Nicole York:

Once you figured that out, then you have to ask yourself, are

Nicole York:

you selling a physical or a digital product or a service?

Nicole York:

Are you selling paper ink? A print an album? Are you selling

Nicole York:

bags with your work printed on them? Are you selling clothing?

Nicole York:

What are you actually selling physically? And how is that

Nicole York:

going to be purchased and delivered? And eventually and

Nicole York:

we'll get to this? How does the cost of that physical product

Nicole York:

affect your bottom line? What is your profit margin on that? So

Nicole York:

we're and we're going to get into all of this because of

Nicole York:

course that this has to do with business models and some of the

Nicole York:

things that we've talked about so far. But just keeping in mind

Nicole York:

first, that what you're doing is meeting a need. And that need is

Nicole York:

generally not a physical one. Sometimes it will be but almost

Nicole York:

always there is a psychological and emotional need that you're

Nicole York:

meeting. Second, we figure out what type of product then fills

Nicole York:

that need. Is that going to be digital products? Is that going

Nicole York:

to be physical ones if it's going to be physical ones? What

Nicole York:

are the profit margins like and how do those physical products

Nicole York:

support the beating heart of our business, that philosophy of

Nicole York:

business that we've talked about so many times before? So before

Nicole York:

we start walking through that process, we're going to do that

Nicole York:

with our moderators this morning, we're going to ask,

Nicole York:

what do you guys do? So how have you gone through this process?

Nicole York:

How did you figure out what you are actually going to sell to

Nicole York:

your customers? Was there anything specific that you had

Nicole York:

in mind that said, Okay, this is definitely the right thing. My

Nicole York:

customers want albums, I should be selling Digital's, I'm going

Nicole York:

to sell stock photos. Because

Nicole York:

all of those things are going to be key components. As we write

Nicole York:

our business plans. That is still coming up Hang in there,

Nicole York:

guys. We're gonna get there, but mods, what are your thoughts on

Nicole York:

how we figure out what we are going to sell?

Bassam Sabbagh:

Hello, everyone. Okay, Nicole, I guess we'll get

Bassam Sabbagh:

right into it. In terms of developing that product

Bassam Sabbagh:

strategy, I guess I like most of you know, unlike some of us are,

Bassam Sabbagh:

I am suprised education influence photographer. And when

Bassam Sabbagh:

I started with her business model, I was convinced that the

Bassam Sabbagh:

the right thing to do for the brand that I want to create is

Bassam Sabbagh:

to sell prints in and in a folio box when I started about four

Bassam Sabbagh:

years ago. So I started my business with the idea that

Bassam Sabbagh:

folio boxes, printed products printed reveal is the right way

Bassam Sabbagh:

to go. And that would be the only product I offer. But

Bassam Sabbagh:

obviously give complimentary Digital's to go with those. And

Bassam Sabbagh:

I did that for a couple of years and relatively successfully.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Because I kind of spoke to the guy I always talk to the

Bassam Sabbagh:

customer up front. And that's my brand. That's what it is. And

Bassam Sabbagh:

and that's you know, so that there is there's no other

Bassam Sabbagh:

option, but I never had a problem with it. What I realized

Bassam Sabbagh:

as I went along is that as I started doing more and more

Bassam Sabbagh:

boudoir photography that full year boxes are not necessarily

Bassam Sabbagh:

the the only way. And I got into albums, which was very

Bassam Sabbagh:

successful, because albums for boudoir tend to be more

Bassam Sabbagh:

intimate, more private, and so on. But I still had an issue

Bassam Sabbagh:

with personal branding, because that's the third type of

Bassam Sabbagh:

photographer that I do. And you know, fundamentally, I know that

Bassam Sabbagh:

personal branding and business portraits and so on, people

Bassam Sabbagh:

don't really need the prints. And so I had to find a way and

Bassam Sabbagh:

to differentiate that, while offering similar prices, I did

Bassam Sabbagh:

not want to confuse the customer with different prices. So what I

Bassam Sabbagh:

decided to do earlier this year is to keep my printed product

Bassam Sabbagh:

brand for all my for my sorry for my boudoir and my maternity

Bassam Sabbagh:

and portraits, regular portraits. And then for personal

Bassam Sabbagh:

branding, I have only digital offer, which I enhanced by

Bassam Sabbagh:

getting other type of value for the same price. So right now I

Bassam Sabbagh:

have a mixture of products. And Digital's and the only part that

Bassam Sabbagh:

I'm really struggling with is really internal is that profit

Bassam Sabbagh:

margin you're talking about? Because fundamentally, if I just

Bassam Sabbagh:

delivered Digital's it's costing me my time only, whereas if I

Bassam Sabbagh:

deliver a product, I'm buying an album, I'm buying a folio box,

Bassam Sabbagh:

and so on. So there's another I would say 15 to 20% of cost. But

Bassam Sabbagh:

I but I'm struggling with that because I always thought my

Bassam Sabbagh:

clients might value the value of what I'm offering you is in the

Bassam Sabbagh:

image itself. And that container doesn't matter. I can can't find

Bassam Sabbagh:

another word for the container, but how they're delivered

Bassam Sabbagh:

doesn't really matter. So if you're paying so much for your

Bassam Sabbagh:

digital your for your images, whether you take them in a folio

Bassam Sabbagh:

box, whether you have an album, whether you take Digital's only

Bassam Sabbagh:

it's the same price, but internally, it's a lower profit

Bassam Sabbagh:

margin. If it's the if it's if I have products, so that part I'm

Bassam Sabbagh:

struggling with, and I keep saying but it's worth it because

Bassam Sabbagh:

that's my brand and if anybody has any ideas or of how I can

Bassam Sabbagh:

get over that part, please help. So that's where I am kind of in

Bassam Sabbagh:

a in a in a quick and dirty way.

Nicole York:

I'd be really curious because I'm so when you

Nicole York:

were initially going through this process, and you were you

Nicole York:

know learning the the method that Sue Bryce was teaching at

Nicole York:

the time and using folio boxes and things like that, were you

Nicole York:

just kind of taking it on her authority that if you were going

Nicole York:

to build this type of business that was the best product or did

Nicole York:

you go through any process yourself to kind of confirm if

Nicole York:

this is the brand that I want to have in this style of business I

Nicole York:

want to run that this makes sense.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Well, I I actually connected with that

Bassam Sabbagh:

business model really fast. I mean, I saw the value of it, I

Bassam Sabbagh:

understood it. I said it's you know, I'm not gonna I'm gonna

Bassam Sabbagh:

I'm not gonna fool around too much and try different things.

Bassam Sabbagh:

So I took the fundamentals of what the what she teaches I

Bassam Sabbagh:

applied them, and it worked relatively fast. Knowing full

Bassam Sabbagh:

well that, you know, totally understanding the fact that I

Bassam Sabbagh:

can adapt it to my way eventually and learn and so on.

Bassam Sabbagh:

So one of the things I learned, you know, relatively fast, is by

Bassam Sabbagh:

doing a printed reveal, I'm really limiting myself in terms

Bassam Sabbagh:

of in two ways, I'm limiting myself in terms of how much I

Bassam Sabbagh:

can sell because I can, you know, practically only print 20

Bassam Sabbagh:

to 30 images, because they'd have to be relatively well

Bassam Sabbagh:

retouched, and so on. So there's a lot of time spent up front

Bassam Sabbagh:

retouching photos, versus doing retouching only photos that they

Bassam Sabbagh:

buy. So I was so by by switching over also to more of a in person

Bassam Sabbagh:

digital reveal on a big on a large screen now I can show

Bassam Sabbagh:

50 6070 images dependent on a shoot and have a better, better

Bassam Sabbagh:

chance of selling images. So it so yeah, it I got sold on the

Bassam Sabbagh:

idea pretty fast, because I I saw the value in it. And I

Bassam Sabbagh:

thought, what is it done is better than perfect. So I just

Bassam Sabbagh:

started right away. And by having that that feedback that

Bassam Sabbagh:

it works, the model works clients see the value, it

Bassam Sabbagh:

allowed me to experiment more easily.

Nicole York:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And, and I think

Nicole York:

it, there's absolutely some value in recognizing that

Nicole York:

sometimes just getting moving is the best thing that we can do.

Nicole York:

Because we can course correct while we're on our way. And

Nicole York:

spending too much time agonizing over these decisions can stop us

Nicole York:

from moving forward. I know we've talked about that before

Nicole York:

about inertia, often being the biggest hurdle we have to

Nicole York:

overcome is just starting. And hopefully this process as we

Nicole York:

talk these things out is really helping people solidify in their

Nicole York:

minds where they want to go. And if you guys are already in

Nicole York:

motion, how you can course correct to bring yourself back

Nicole York:

into a better alignment with the kind of business you want to

Nicole York:

run. And I think listening to you speak, the song just

Nicole York:

reminded me of the fact that we need to ask ourselves a couple

Nicole York:

of questions here. And one of those things is how do we choose

Nicole York:

products and services that do support our core brand mission?

Nicole York:

Right? But then also, what kind of life do we want to live in? I

Nicole York:

know, we've asked ourselves this question before, but there are

Nicole York:

some folks out there who will recognize from the get go that

Nicole York:

they're incredibly uncomfortable selling in person. And clearly

Nicole York:

for for that business model two have worked for you. That's not

Nicole York:

a thing that you struggled with to the point of not being able

Nicole York:

to comply, right? Where some people just the idea of standing

Nicole York:

in front of somebody and asking for money, they may fall apart.

Nicole York:

And so knowing ourselves and knowing what we're capable of

Nicole York:

sounds like a really important first step to knowing what types

Nicole York:

of products and services we can sell. Because if I recognize

Nicole York:

trying to sell things to people is going to make me panic. But I

Nicole York:

can absolutely send people digital files or set up a system

Nicole York:

where people can buy digital files. And that obviously opens

Nicole York:

up a whole realm of possibilities for me. And I may

Nicole York:

instead consider things like stock photography or, you know,

Nicole York:

full digital galleries that people get, or et cetera, et

Nicole York:

cetera, right, it becomes an entirely different process than

Nicole York:

it would be if I knew I could sit in front of people and I

Nicole York:

could sell and that personal connection was really big for

Nicole York:

me. So it sounds like number one, understanding ourselves is

Nicole York:

going to be a really big deal. And figuring out what types of

Nicole York:

products and services we want to sell to fill the needs that we

Nicole York:

are recognizing for our client and to understanding how those

Nicole York:

goods and services really support the type of business

Nicole York:

model we want. It sounds like those two things. I mean, at

Nicole York:

least that's what I really kind of got from you.

Bassam Sabbagh:

Yeah, I'm gonna leave space for others to talk

Bassam Sabbagh:

soon. I just want to say one more thing, because there's

Bassam Sabbagh:

another aspect of it when we talk about choosing what you

Bassam Sabbagh:

want to do versus, you know, in what's profitable, and what's

Bassam Sabbagh:

not, what's not what's not profitable, what's the best way

Bassam Sabbagh:

to make the most out of your business, I have a spreadsheet

Bassam Sabbagh:

with most of my shoots in it. And I go through a big analysis

Bassam Sabbagh:

of, you know, how much they spent, how many pictures they

Bassam Sabbagh:

bought, what's the price per picture, what's the profit per

Bassam Sabbagh:

picture, whether you know, and I and I and it's clear to me that

Bassam Sabbagh:

when the you know, the most money I make is on, believe it

Bassam Sabbagh:

or not quick headshots, right, because it's a little amount of

Bassam Sabbagh:

work. It's digital only. And, and price is the same per

Bassam Sabbagh:

picture as are probably higher than if you buy a big package.

Bassam Sabbagh:

However, right however, I get a heck of a lot more pleasure out

Bassam Sabbagh:

of having a day with a client connecting with a client to

Bassam Sabbagh:

working with them, you know, having that that that the once

Bassam Sabbagh:

in a lifetime experience with them and for them, then

Bassam Sabbagh:

scheduling four or five headshot sessions in one day, when I know

Bassam Sabbagh:

I can make more money scheduling four or five headshots in one

Bassam Sabbagh:

day, but it's not really what I enjoy doing. So I make the

Bassam Sabbagh:

choice of making less money per shoot or per day, but to do the

Bassam Sabbagh:

thing I love to do, right. So that comes interplay, when you

Bassam Sabbagh:

want to decide you're talking about the lifestyle, it's not

Bassam Sabbagh:

just about the lifestyle, it's about what gives you joy. And as

Bassam Sabbagh:

you do this work

Nicole York:

Yeah, absolutely. And I certainly include that in

Nicole York:

my thought, like, when I say what kind of life do you want to

Nicole York:

live? I certainly include that in, you know, I'm not thinking

Nicole York:

just lifestyle there, but day to day, what do you want your life

Nicole York:

to look like and experiencing, being able to have those Joy

Nicole York:

moments is I mean, that's what everything is all about, is

Nicole York:

being able to live the life you're living every single day.

Nicole York:

So I absolutely agree with you there. And that's why I think

Nicole York:

it's so important for us to recognize who we are as people

Nicole York:

and what we know that we're capable of, and what we're going

Nicole York:

to get joy from doing. And for many folks, the idea of speaking

Nicole York:

in public is the most terrifying thing that they can contemplate.

Nicole York:

So probably jumping into in person sales, right off the bat,

Nicole York:

maybe not the best idea. But if you believe that, that is where

Nicole York:

your brand is best served, then that might be the kind of thing

Nicole York:

that gets added to your your startup costs as bringing in

Nicole York:

somebody to do your sales, maybe you have a dedicated

Nicole York:

salesperson. So you know, this, this conversation around how we

Nicole York:

sell what we sell, is really important, because it's going to

Nicole York:

define a lot of aspects of our business, for the customer and

Nicole York:

for the actual process. And I think you're right, when we look

Nicole York:

at things like those profit margins between those physical

Nicole York:

products versus digital products, we do have to ask

Nicole York:

ourselves that question of scalability is that something

Nicole York:

that's important do I know? And have I discovered that I'm going

Nicole York:

to be the kind of soul of my business, I'm going to be that

Nicole York:

sole proprietor, I'm going to run this thing until it's done.

Nicole York:

And when it's done, it's going to disappear off the face of the

Nicole York:

earth. And so I am going to kind of maintain the central aspect

Nicole York:

of selling in person, or do I want to make this scalable so

Nicole York:

that I can bring in associates, I can open up different

Nicole York:

locations, I don't need to be the heart of this business all

Nicole York:

the time, people can take over these processes for me, and then

Nicole York:

all of a sudden, we can increase our client load. And we can do

Nicole York:

those things so that maybe I just become kind of the I get to

Nicole York:

photograph who I want. And I become the kind of overseer of

Nicole York:

everything. And I mean, those are the questions we have to ask

Nicole York:

ourselves, because of course, what flows from that what we're

Nicole York:

able to give to our clients is going to be highly dependent on

Nicole York:

those answers. So Matt, and Becca, I'm dying to hear from

Nicole York:

you guys as well. How do you figure out what you are selling?

Matt Stagliano:

My story really echoes the Psalms in so many

Matt Stagliano:

ways, starting with the suprise model going into folio boxes,

Matt Stagliano:

all of that and not having any idea of sales or retail prior to

Matt Stagliano:

that I was selling $5 digital downloads. on the retail side, I

Matt Stagliano:

was doing commercial stuff just fine. But on the retail I had no

Matt Stagliano:

idea what to do. So when I switched over to more of an in

Matt Stagliano:

person sales retail model, I just followed the suprise model

Matt Stagliano:

straight out of the gate, and only offered folio boxes and

Matt Stagliano:

Walmart. Now, what I found is that that's all well and good.

Matt Stagliano:

And it served me well it kept me in business made good money.

Matt Stagliano:

However, I wasn't really listening to what the clients

Matt Stagliano:

wanted. And that's where the shift started to happen for me,

Matt Stagliano:

rather than saying, This is what I'm going to, I hate saying push

Matt Stagliano:

on you. But here's the products that I'm going to serve you

Matt Stagliano:

with. I started to look at what I was being asked for over and

Matt Stagliano:

over providing what I'm being asked for which is predominantly

Matt Stagliano:

just Digital's and then also upselling to the printed

Matt Stagliano:

products. The folio boxes will our metal prints wood prints

Matt Stagliano:

Canvas albums, pushing into that by adding value of talking about

Matt Stagliano:

the emotional connection that we were talking about earlier, at

Matt Stagliano:

the beginning of the call, really making them understand

Matt Stagliano:

that yeah, Digital's are great was the last time you lost your

Matt Stagliano:

phone or had a hard drive crash or whatnot. And it would be a

Matt Stagliano:

shame if all of these were gone. And I started talking to them

Matt Stagliano:

about why prints are important. Not forcing them on them but

Matt Stagliano:

just saying, hey, when you walk into a room, there's got to be a

Matt Stagliano:

picture of you on the wall somewhere that you feel great

Matt Stagliano:

about. And that's why we're doing these now as well. And

Matt Stagliano:

once you start to connect their emotion with the product, not in

Matt Stagliano:

a salesy way but just this is how it's going to enhance your

Matt Stagliano:

life. I started to realize that a lot of the products that I

Matt Stagliano:

offer that people just didn't care about, but they did get the

Matt Stagliano:

emotional connection from the theory of prints. So we're I am

Matt Stagliano:

here in New England, houses are small, not a ton of wall space,

Matt Stagliano:

these are not McMansions. So large wall a 30 by 40 just is

Matt Stagliano:

not a thing here. However, smaller print that's in that 16

Matt Stagliano:

by 2016, by 24 range seem to go well, because people can see

Matt Stagliano:

that on their dining room wall or living room wall or bedroom

Matt Stagliano:

wall. So it took me a while to get out of the mindset of these

Matt Stagliano:

are the products I'm going to provide. And people love them or

Matt Stagliano:

hate them, and instead started listening to the clients to say,

Matt Stagliano:

what is it? What are the needs that they have what needs to be

Matt Stagliano:

filled there, primarily, it's digital. And then I can also

Matt Stagliano:

carry the prints and like besom was saying, at a higher profit

Matt Stagliano:

margin, if I upsell to prints, but for me, it's all about

Matt Stagliano:

connection is all about emotion, whether it's digital or printed,

Matt Stagliano:

that's what I'm selling, I'm selling a product that is almost

Matt Stagliano:

intangible, it's the ability to look at yourself in a different

Matt Stagliano:

way. And so that's what my product is, the things that you

Matt Stagliano:

get out of that are just enhancements. That sounds a

Matt Stagliano:

little bit trite and cliche, but I mean, it's really what I

Matt Stagliano:

believe.

Nicole York:

I don't think it sounds trite at all, I think I

Nicole York:

think you exactly hit the nail on the head on how we open this

Nicole York:

conversation, understanding that what we are selling is not

Nicole York:

primarily a physical product, a physical product represents what

Nicole York:

we're selling, but what we're really selling as meeting an

Nicole York:

emotional need. And so taking that emotional need, and

Nicole York:

connecting it to the product makes a whole lot of sense, from

Nicole York:

a psychological point of view, in order to help your customers

Nicole York:

connect with what you you believe is really going to serve

Nicole York:

them best. And I think you made a fantastic point there that

Nicole York:

everyone should consider, which is, you know, you can either

Nicole York:

choose a couple products and say this is all it's going to be

Nicole York:

because this is what I value. And what that means is now you

Nicole York:

have to do the work of finding either finding the people who

Nicole York:

value that along with you, which is all in the marketing and

Nicole York:

studying the statistics and all that kind of stuff, and then

Nicole York:

putting your ad dollars in the right places and testing and all

Nicole York:

that good jazz, it may take you a long time before you hit that

Nicole York:

nail on the head continually. So that you never have to worry

Nicole York:

about whether or not your clients are going to want that

Nicole York:

product. Or you listen to your client, and you make adjustments

Nicole York:

from there. So you can provide them with what they're telling

Nicole York:

you they need. And then you don't have to necessarily change

Nicole York:

your outreach, because you're obviously already reaching those

Nicole York:

people. So I think that's a really important thing to

Nicole York:

consider. Because your time, I mean, you can either spend time,

Nicole York:

money or assets, right? And so, and all of those things have

Nicole York:

equal value given the weight of them. And so if you spend all of

Nicole York:

your time and your money trying to find the right clients who

Nicole York:

value Walmart, especially in a market like yours, I mean, you

Nicole York:

could that could put you in financial trouble right there.

Nicole York:

So that's a really important consideration to make, I think.

Matt Stagliano:

Yes, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know if you need

Matt Stagliano:

me to add anything else there. Yeah, I think, you know, in,

Matt Stagliano:

what I found is by talking to the customers really

Matt Stagliano:

understanding what their needs are, that changed the game for

Matt Stagliano:

me. And now I can really dictate what my profit margins look

Matt Stagliano:

like, and really hone in on the cost of goods. Because if I'm

Matt Stagliano:

not selling, you know, 50 folio boxes a month, which I'm

Matt Stagliano:

absolutely not, if I'm not selling 50 folio boxes a month,

Matt Stagliano:

then, you know, I have the opportunity to look around at

Matt Stagliano:

different vendors and not get in too deep I can, you know, keep

Matt Stagliano:

playing with the offerings, I'm still offering a folio box, but

Matt Stagliano:

at different price points, depending on the vendor that I

Matt Stagliano:

use. And with that allows me to continually improve the

Matt Stagliano:

business, still offering quality products, but at a price point

Matt Stagliano:

that makes me more money. So yeah, it's just all listening to

Matt Stagliano:

the needs, rather than just saying this is the only way or

Matt Stagliano:

this is the only vendor that I can use or whatnot. I think it's

Matt Stagliano:

again, it's playing over and over and over with the model

Matt Stagliano:

that you have, and just continually optimizing it.

Nicole York:

Yeah, absolutely. I think you said two things there

Nicole York:

that I want to grab onto before I poke back a little bit. And

Nicole York:

one of those things is, you know, keeping in mind our profit

Nicole York:

margins, I think we do have to ask ourselves and make sure that

Nicole York:

we know in advance. And that's obviously a big part of the

Nicole York:

point of this conversation. But I think we do have to know in

Nicole York:

advance where we're heading there are Are we making short

Nicole York:

term strategic decisions? Or are we looking long term and saying,

Nicole York:

I know that eventually there's I'm going to come to a place

Nicole York:

where I don't want to be involved in the day to day

Nicole York:

running of this business anymore. I want somebody else to

Nicole York:

handle those things. And so where do my profit margins have

Nicole York:

to be in order to support that long term goal, which when we

Nicole York:

asked ourselves at the beginning of this mastering the business

Nicole York:

of art, when we asked ourselves, you know, what kind of business

Nicole York:

do we want to run? What what do we see our lives looking like

Nicole York:

every day. And if we look at this in the long term is this

Nicole York:

the kind of business where I know I'm going to want an exit

Nicole York:

strategy, I mean, we should be building those kind of into the,

Nicole York:

the bones of the business in any case, but we should know from

Nicole York:

the beginning, if I need to put myself in a place where I want

Nicole York:

to be able to walk away from this still have the business

Nicole York:

run, still receive an income and have somebody else run it, or

Nicole York:

sell it at some point, then what has to be built in as far as

Nicole York:

profits go in order to facilitate that, and you need to

Nicole York:

be able to have the kind of profit margin that is not just

Nicole York:

allowing your business to exist on a day to day basis, but it's

Nicole York:

allowing it to grow and thrive and provide for things like

Nicole York:

contractors or associates, or, you know, bringing in full time

Nicole York:

people who can replace you in the things that you do, whether

Nicole York:

that's outsourcing or actually hiring somebody into a physical

Nicole York:

location. And knowing what those profit margins are, so you can

Nicole York:

predict how much money you're gonna make. I mean, all of that

Nicole York:

is a really big deal. So people definitely need to be

Nicole York:

considering that when they're asking themselves, what kind of

Nicole York:

business do I want to run? Is scalability going to be

Nicole York:

important for me? Or do I want to have a small mom and pop type

Nicole York:

of thing where I, my fingers are in every part of this pie,

Nicole York:

that's an important thing for us to know about ourselves. And

Nicole York:

then also Matt, I think, you know, listening to you talk

Nicole York:

about, you know, the switch to digital and listening to your

Nicole York:

clients, the thing I really take away from that is the fact that

Nicole York:

you making that change still supports the core tenet of your

Nicole York:

business, which is connection, right. And if you were to ignore

Nicole York:

your clients and keep pushing these things on them, it's not

Nicole York:

like you couldn't make money, but you would be kind of

Nicole York:

fighting that that heart philosophy of your business,

Nicole York:

which is to to build and facilitate that connection, not

Nicole York:

only you know, you with your clients, but your clients with

Nicole York:

themselves. So I love the fact that you're able to make these

Nicole York:

adjustments to your product while still supporting that core

Nicole York:

business philosophy. Do you feel like making this decision is

Nicole York:

allowing you to serve?

Matt Stagliano:

Yeah, absolutely. It really does like

Matt Stagliano:

this, the switch to digital, like in person sales with

Matt Stagliano:

digital, for me is kind of like the pinnacle right now of

Matt Stagliano:

service. For me, being able to show clients 7080 100 photos per

Matt Stagliano:

session totally changes the game in terms of sales numbers,

Matt Stagliano:

versus the printed reveals, like I used to do like besondere. So

Matt Stagliano:

yeah, that switch to digital not only keeps up with the times and

Matt Stagliano:

trends and what people are looking for, but it allows me to

Matt Stagliano:

serve the same way. And, you know, reduce my costs at the

Matt Stagliano:

same time, which is kind of like the best part of business being

Matt Stagliano:

able to do that. So, yeah, it was a it was a game changer.

Nicole York:

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay, so we've heard

Nicole York:

from a couple of portrait photographers on how they were

Nicole York:

able to kind of get started with, in a way a kind of a tried

Nicole York:

and tested pre packaged business model. So we can start with

Nicole York:

having learned from somebody else, and somebody who was

Nicole York:

successful, like super ice where we can take the way that they've

Nicole York:

built their business and use that for ourselves and then be

Nicole York:

able to test it and find out okay, how do I need to change

Nicole York:

these things to suit the kind of business I want to run. And now

Nicole York:

we are going to hear from a couple of artists who sell

Nicole York:

things that are not portraits. So Becca and I both sell not

Nicole York:

only commissioned pieces of artwork, but other types of

Nicole York:

digital art and services. So I want to hear from you, Becca,

Nicole York:

what does this process look like for you? Are the products

Nicole York:

completely determined by you know, your ability to deliver

Nicole York:

them? Or how do you go about figuring out what you're selling

Nicole York:

to people? Because obviously, the needs that we are meeting as

Nicole York:

digital artists are not necessarily the same needs that

Nicole York:

we're meeting as portrait photographers. So how do you

Nicole York:

kind of figure this out?

Bekka Bjorke:

Yeah, so that real shift for me, because it's been

Bekka Bjorke:

a long meandering exploration of so many different kinds of art

Bekka Bjorke:

for me to like, kind of found my home where I'm at now, and was

Bekka Bjorke:

really looking at what I provide a service and not as product, I

Bekka Bjorke:

don't even really think that I sell product. I only sell

Bekka Bjorke:

service that we want to think of it and kind of more palatable,

Bekka Bjorke:

phrasing there would be maybe design services, because that is

Bekka Bjorke:

an absolute integral part to how I work, and that covers

Bekka Bjorke:

everything. So if I'm doing a commissioned piece, it's still a

Bekka Bjorke:

design service, it's designing something for the client. If I'm

Bekka Bjorke:

working on practical props, that is a design service for the

Bekka Bjorke:

client. If I'm working on a book cover, again, design service,

Bekka Bjorke:

it's not about the product and the product is completely

Bekka Bjorke:

variable, depending on the client. So that was like a big

Bekka Bjorke:

shift for me not worrying about making prints. It's not worrying

Bekka Bjorke:

about, you know, having some sort of product catalog of this

Bekka Bjorke:

is only what I do, because that's not what I do is I sell

Bekka Bjorke:

ideas, and I sell the people the ability to create their own

Bekka Bjorke:

ideas. So that took a while to get there took a while to get

Bekka Bjorke:

there, but I got it, and it's working. And so that's about

Bekka Bjorke:

where I'm at right now.

Nicole York:

Okay, beautiful. And so when you're looking at

Nicole York:

this, as you know, a service, and somebody is coming to you

Nicole York:

specifically for a service, and so the product just kind of

Nicole York:

becomes an extension of that. Does the? And because this is

Nicole York:

all digital, right? Or are you actually selling any physical

Nicole York:

products? Let me first ask that question.

Bekka Bjorke:

No, I'm not. And that is actually something that

Bekka Bjorke:

I should probably explore more like, sometimes people on prints

Bekka Bjorke:

of my work, people ask for them, like, I should listen and

Bekka Bjorke:

probably put effort into that like, but I don't want to go

Bekka Bjorke:

through the more boutique process that you would say, for

Bekka Bjorke:

photography, business. When it comes to printmaking, I would

Bekka Bjorke:

want something really on demand that I don't have to think about

Bekka Bjorke:

and is more passive, and I just haven't put the time into

Bekka Bjorke:

creating that option. So maybe no to self that I need to go

Bekka Bjorke:

through that. But no, I really don't sell physical products. I

Bekka Bjorke:

mean, even when working with like practical props and stuff

Bekka Bjorke:

like that, you know, it's I don't again, think of it as

Bekka Bjorke:

like, this is the product, I'm going to bill you for these

Bekka Bjorke:

products. No, I'm billing for my time. And that time can be spent

Bekka Bjorke:

designing that time can be spent in meetings that time can be

Bekka Bjorke:

spent doing research that time can be spent building something

Bekka Bjorke:

that time can be spent painting, but it's not about the product.

Bekka Bjorke:

So no, in general, no product.

Nicole York:

Okay, okay. And that's super important for us to

Nicole York:

recognize, because it obviously changes the dynamic of the

Nicole York:

things that you offer, because now you don't have a profit

Nicole York:

margin that exists between the physical product and what you're

Nicole York:

actually able to take home dispersed amongst all of the

Nicole York:

cost of doing business, right? That changes things and so not

Nicole York:

having that physical product, that that means that you have to

Nicole York:

build for your time. So one of the things that that startup

Nicole York:

business kind of gurus will often talk about is that the

Nicole York:

physical product is almost a justification for the price. And

Nicole York:

so we have to get out of that mindset that it is the physical

Nicole York:

product that justifies the price, because that's only very

Nicole York:

rarely true. In rare circumstances, when we're

Nicole York:

talking really incredibly high end pieces that have a

Nicole York:

justification for things like this wood only comes from a

Nicole York:

certain place, and this artist only has two days of a month

Nicole York:

that they're able to work and this product is incredibly labor

Nicole York:

intensive. And it takes four months to print the single piece

Nicole York:

of paper, etc, etc, right? There are times when the actual

Nicole York:

physical product will justify the cost. But those are very

Nicole York:

rare for most of us. It is our time and our skill and our

Nicole York:

talent or abilities that are the actual meat of why people are

Nicole York:

paying us the money that they're paying us. And so in order to

Nicole York:

make a sustainable business long term, where you are stepping

Nicole York:

into the same shoes that Becca is wearing, where it is the

Nicole York:

design and the service that people are paying for and the

Nicole York:

product kind of becomes a secondary representation of

Nicole York:

that, then you have to build enough that those hours are all

Nicole York:

being paid for and contributing toward the kind of life that you

Nicole York:

want to live. So how did you start to figure that part out

Nicole York:

Becca? Because now not having cost of goods that you have to

Nicole York:

add to your cost of doing business? Was there any kind of

Nicole York:

model that you used to say, Okay, people are paying me for

Nicole York:

my ideas by the hour so how did

Unknown:

lots and lots?

Nicole York:

Oh, no, we just lost Becca. Becca, you're gone.

Nicole York:

Alright, well wait for her to come back. I'm sure she will.

Nicole York:

I'm sure she will figure it out that she's not here anymore. And

Nicole York:

in the meantime, I will I Oh, there she is.

Unknown:

Alright, my my clubhouse is doing it keeps

Unknown:

going in and out. Okay. Did you hear anything? Or was I talking

Unknown:

to myself? Lots and Lots.

Bekka Bjorke:

Lots and lots. Okay. Yes. So it's the the cost

Bekka Bjorke:

that you can charge for, like very luxury portraiture and

Bekka Bjorke:

photography is very, very different than the cost that you

Bekka Bjorke:

can charge for a lot of other kinds of art. So if you're a

Bekka Bjorke:

portrait photographer, keep that in mind if money is your big

Bekka Bjorke:

motivator there. So a lot of it was just trying to find answers

Bekka Bjorke:

from other artists, which people can be very private about.

Bekka Bjorke:

People don't like to talk about what their rates are. They don't

Bekka Bjorke:

like to talk about what they charge. It's, you know, taboo

Bekka Bjorke:

for some reason, when really I think that's something we should

Bekka Bjorke:

talk about. So we can, you know, empower each other and be

Bekka Bjorke:

charging the right rate But anyway, yeah, it was it was a

Bekka Bjorke:

lot of digging, a lot of, you know, just trying to find those

Bekka Bjorke:

answers, which they're few and far between. And then of course,

Bekka Bjorke:

you know that working backwards from what do I want to make any

Bekka Bjorke:

year? Okay, what does that mean? What I need to make in a month,

Bekka Bjorke:

what I need to make in a week, what I need to make in an hour,

Bekka Bjorke:

and then pricing myself accordingly. From there. There

Bekka Bjorke:

also were one thing that I have been able to find, as far as

Bekka Bjorke:

resources online go as you can actually find, kind of like

Bekka Bjorke:

standardized rates, like Union rates for things like if you're

Bekka Bjorke:

interested in working in film, so those kinds of things were

Bekka Bjorke:

very helpful. Also, like Illustrator, guilds, places like

Bekka Bjorke:

that will also have those resources. So those were really

Bekka Bjorke:

helpful for developing that rate for myself to make sure I wasn't

Bekka Bjorke:

charging something outrageously higher wages.

Nicole York:

Okay, outstanding, that's fantastic resources. So

Nicole York:

making sure that you are looking at if you are kind of within a

Nicole York:

similar market, making sure that you're looking at that market,

Nicole York:

and then comparing that to what you need to be able to earn in

Nicole York:

order to thrive. And we'll say that instead of survive,

Nicole York:

because, of course, many of us may start off in the survivor

Nicole York:

kind of mindset and space just so we can get moving. But we

Nicole York:

don't want to stay there, right, we want to be thriving, so

Nicole York:

making sure that we are building ourselves towards charging those

Nicole York:

prices that allow us to thrive. So, okay. That then from Becca's

Nicole York:

perspective, is pretty outstanding. And from my

Nicole York:

perspective, as an artist, there are a few things that I have to

Nicole York:

look at. One is, and I can speak on a few different areas here.

Nicole York:

So this this will be kind of interesting one is that in a

Nicole York:

part of one of my businesses, I want to be able to scale, that's

Nicole York:

the most important thing for me. So when I look at this, from the

Nicole York:

perspective of an author, I am creating a product that has a

Nicole York:

very long potential shelf life. And I want this as a scalable

Nicole York:

product, meaning I it's a relatively inexpensive product

Nicole York:

to buy, because that's dictated by the market. So I don't get to

Nicole York:

decide that my you know, 130,000 word book is going to cost $50,

Nicole York:

I don't get to do that, because it just falls so far outside of

Nicole York:

any kind of norm for the market that nobody besides maybe one or

Nicole York:

two random crazy fans will ever buy that. So I have to choose

Nicole York:

those prices dependent upon the platforms that I'm on. So Amazon

Nicole York:

gives you certain benefits. If you price your product in a

Nicole York:

certain range, meaning they're more likely to recommend your

Nicole York:

product, they're more likely to boost your product, etc, etc. So

Nicole York:

I have to consider the market that I'm in. Second, I know that

Nicole York:

scalability is important to me. For those books, I want as many

Nicole York:

people to buy them as possible. And by doing that, that product

Nicole York:

all of a sudden becomes you know, once it's out in the

Nicole York:

world, I don't have to sell every individual book, I just

Nicole York:

have to let people know that it exists. So that then becomes a

Nicole York:

scalable product for me. So in that realm, those are the things

Nicole York:

that I have to know in order to figure out the fact that, you

Nicole York:

know, I'm going to be selling these books, they're scalable,

Nicole York:

that's going to influence my decision making on what it costs

Nicole York:

and what the product is. Because if I have to sell, it used to be

Nicole York:

that you would have to buy books, if you were going to

Nicole York:

let's say self publish, you would have to go to a vanity

Nicole York:

press buy a run of like 500 to 5000 or something books, you had

Nicole York:

to store and ship all of those things yourself. So that's a

Nicole York:

really, really high cost for doing that kind of business. Now

Nicole York:

I have to ask myself, do I want to be able to print these things

Nicole York:

on demand when people buy them? Or do I just want to sell

Nicole York:

ebooks, there are some authors doing incredibly well, purely by

Nicole York:

selling ebooks, they do not sell print. And so that influences

Nicole York:

their business model. So those are things that you have to

Nicole York:

consider up front do I want this to be scalable and bulk? Or do I

Nicole York:

want this to be boutique and really specialized. On the other

Nicole York:

side of my business, I have prints that I sale as a sell as

Nicole York:

part of their it's a retail thing. So those are in my store

Nicole York:

on my website, photographs that have taken fine art pieces that

Nicole York:

I've made, folks are able to go and buy those. Those things also

Nicole York:

are aimed at a general audience and are meant to be consumed in

Nicole York:

bulk. They're not one of ones they're not special prints. It's

Nicole York:

literally print on demand for people who want to put fantasy

Nicole York:

things in their home or in their space. It's made affordable for

Nicole York:

that purpose. It serves the reason that I want it to be

Nicole York:

there, which is I want people to be able to get those things in

Nicole York:

their home for a price that just about anybody can afford because

Nicole York:

everybody should be surrounded by fantastical things. So those

Nicole York:

things exist for that purpose. But when somebody comes to me to

Nicole York:

commission an art piece, then the price has changed

Nicole York:

drastically because I am creating a unique thing

Nicole York:

specifically for that person. And it's designed with their

Nicole York:

input from the ground up. So in that case, which is similar to

Nicole York:

what Becca is doing, it's the design that they're getting from

Nicole York:

me, it's my time and my talent that they're buying from me it's

Nicole York:

not necessarily the fact that they are getting a digital

Nicole York:

product, which in those cases they are and they're free to

Nicole York:

print those if they like for whatever purpose they have,

Nicole York:

because I'm charging enough that I'm willing to let them stuff

Nicole York:

go, I don't need to be responsible for the prints

Nicole York:

afterward. In fact, I don't want to be. Because by the time I'm

Nicole York:

done working with a client,

Nicole York:

I don't want them coming back to me for specialty prints or

Nicole York:

anything, I'm not interested in that process. That's not what I

Nicole York:

want my day to day life to look like I don't want to be spending

Nicole York:

my time ordering specific things for people. That's not how I

Nicole York:

want to live my life. So I've removed that and chopped it off.

Nicole York:

And that's not part of my process. So if you are looking

Nicole York:

at wanting to make a living as an artist selling pieces that

Nicole York:

you make, then you have to ask yourself all of these same

Nicole York:

questions. Number one, do you want this to be scalable? Do you

Nicole York:

want to sell lots of art to lots of people so that they can get

Nicole York:

those things? If you do, then you have to ask yourself, how

Nicole York:

are they going to get these things is this going to be a

Nicole York:

digital thing that they buy from me and they can print is this

Nicole York:

going to be from a print store where people come in, they

Nicole York:

purchase their prints from there, and it's it's print on

Nicole York:

demand, and I have no part in that which I do not for my

Nicole York:

retail prints, folks just buy those and they go out the door,

Nicole York:

I just see that they bought them and I get the money. So that's,

Nicole York:

you know, that's the difference for me there is that how you

Nicole York:

want that business to run, that is the kind of thing that if

Nicole York:

you're marketing it correctly, could potentially be making you

Nicole York:

money while you sleep, because you don't have to be involved in

Nicole York:

the process anymore. But if you are the kind of artist who wants

Nicole York:

to sell individual fine art pieces, then that is obviously

Nicole York:

going to affect the way that you're able to live your life, I

Nicole York:

have friends in the fine art market. And a good deal of their

Nicole York:

time is spent hobnobbing with collectors and finding

Nicole York:

collectors and speaking to them and explaining their process and

Nicole York:

the story behind their work. And so these pieces sell for

Nicole York:

10 $20,000 apiece. And of course, they have to be very

Nicole York:

carefully printed, they have to be really specifically handled

Nicole York:

and framed by professionals and those pieces get hand delivered

Nicole York:

and hung on the wall. And to those folks, that is an

Nicole York:

important part of what they're selling. It is that unique

Nicole York:

individual hand signed, it has certificate of authenticity,

Nicole York:

it's, it's, you have the only one of these that exists. That

Nicole York:

is why paintings often cost so much money because they won't be

Nicole York:

reproduced that one painting is the only one painting that will

Nicole York:

ever exist. So you are choosing then to make your money off of

Nicole York:

the limited availability of that product. Because it is a one on

Nicole York:

one, you get to choose what you are doing here. And then ask

Nicole York:

yourself, Okay, I know that I want to sell individual pieces

Nicole York:

for a high amount of money. What does that entail? And what will

Nicole York:

that make my life look like? Is that the kind of life I'm

Nicole York:

willing to live? And if it's not, then you got some decisions

Nicole York:

to make. Right? So at this point, I would love to encourage

Nicole York:

our friends in the audience. Raise your hands, if you have

Nicole York:

some thoughts on how you come to the answers, what products are

Nicole York:

you going to sell? How are you going to sell them? Because we'd

Nicole York:

love to kind of round this out. We've heard from some portrait

Nicole York:

photographers, we've heard from a couple of artists. So let's

Nicole York:

have folks raise their hand. And then because we are already

Nicole York:

coming to the end of the hour, let's make sure we stay really

Nicole York:

succinct as we can and try to try to keep those things to a

Nicole York:

minimum. And remember here we're looking for help as much as

Nicole York:

possible. So if you have a question, we'll try to handle

Nicole York:

that really quickly. But questions, let's try to mostly

Nicole York:

keep those to the Facebook group. So we actually have a lot

Nicole York:

of time to answer them. Becca, just

Bekka Bjorke:

one thing that you've sparked, again, for me,

Bekka Bjorke:

is licensing, because that is something that is really heavily

Bekka Bjorke:

worked into my own business. And it I deal with licensing with

Bekka Bjorke:

everything that I create for a client, but also separately when

Bekka Bjorke:

people want to license work I've already created. So that is

Bekka Bjorke:

another aspect that I don't really consider a product, but

Bekka Bjorke:

it's maybe more kind of in line with a product and I do sell

Bekka Bjorke:

individual licenses, but also greatly impacts how things are

Bekka Bjorke:

priced in.

Nicole York:

Sorry, that's definitely important to look at.

Nicole York:

And licensing. So just really quickly, you have a quite a few

Nicole York:

options. If you are looking at making money off of the work

Nicole York:

that you create, and not necessarily always commissioned

Nicole York:

work for other people, even though you still can sometimes

Nicole York:

do this with commissioned work. But you can sell portraits, you

Nicole York:

can sell stock, you have fine art, you have commercial, you

Nicole York:

have retail design. So there there are a lot of different

Nicole York:

areas where you can be making money as an artist and looking

Nicole York:

at those areas. And then also recognizing any piece that

Nicole York:

you've created for yourself can then be licensed. And if

Nicole York:

somebody and when we say licensed somebody might want

Nicole York:

that for a book cover or they might license that for their

Nicole York:

website or there's a lot of different ways that somebody can

Nicole York:

pay for usage and then that becomes another way that you can

Nicole York:

earn income. But, but making sure If you're going to go down

Nicole York:

that road route, you speak to a lawyer because you want to have

Nicole York:

the kind of contracts in place that are going to say, what

Nicole York:

somebody can use it for how long they can use it on what media,

Nicole York:

they can use it. And if you want to get an idea for what that may

Nicole York:

potentially look at, look like Getty has a great calculator

Nicole York:

that will at least give you the kind of broad ideas if somebody

Nicole York:

wants to license this for a blog post that they're going to use

Nicole York:

on their website that has 50,000 viewers a month, that will give

Nicole York:

you an idea of what licensing costs may look like for that. So

Nicole York:

keep that in mind. All right, we have Larry with us. Hello, my

Nicole York:

friend, excited to hear from you.

Unknown:

How are you? Good to be here.

Nicole York:

Doing well doing well. Glad to have you. I'm

Nicole York:

excited to hear your thoughts.

Unknown:

Well, my are are twofold. I also licensed my

Unknown:

artwork. And that's, that's something that in order to

Unknown:

license artwork, you have to continually do our work. I work

Unknown:

with an agent and he has expectations of timelines and

Unknown:

when I have to produce art and have it ready for his clients to

Unknown:

see. So, you know, I think it's important to be very systemized

Unknown:

as an artist, and have your systems in place. And for me,

Unknown:

because I also on the print side of things, I specialize in

Unknown:

Christmas art. And that for me starts Christmas in July, with

Unknown:

the marketing of that starts well in advance. But we have a

Unknown:

very specific system of marketing, to fill the dates

Unknown:

that we're going to succinctly open up as each one fills, so

Unknown:

that the sales and marketing side of it is very, very

Unknown:

systematic for the Christmas are because I need to do that for

Unknown:

six months. And then the other six months, I want to work on my

Unknown:

work through oil painting and licensing. So everything's got a

Unknown:

categorized spot within the year calendar. But getting into the

Unknown:

second half of the year, for us before and for me, the system I

Unknown:

developed was really figuring out who is going to be the buyer

Unknown:

of the art that the Christmas Ornament create, which is Santa

Unknown:

art. And once I figured out that buyer, then I create products

Unknown:

that I know the buyers, those specific buyers will purchase

Unknown:

for their home. And that will have purpose and meaning for

Unknown:

their family, then I can set up my system of creating not too

Unknown:

many products, I like to call it my three pillars, so that it

Unknown:

makes very easy purchase decisions. And yet those three

Unknown:

pillars once sold, will hit the target number that I need per

Unknown:

session. Now I can break it down, like let's say, I've got

Unknown:

six months, how many? How much do I want to make that six

Unknown:

months, I know what I'm going to sell per session, how many

Unknown:

sessions will I want to do. And then I can put my system into

Unknown:

place. And the other thing that's of great importance to

Unknown:

this is that once you have your system in place, and you've got

Unknown:

your pricing in place, you need to be very consistent with that

Unknown:

you can't stray from that. Because the minute that you

Unknown:

stray, you don't know you won't remember what you said to

Unknown:

different people that you talk to everybody gets walked into

Unknown:

and experiences the same system, whether the it's the sales and

Unknown:

marketing and merchandising, the product or the actual session

Unknown:

itself, and everything works around it, it becomes this, this

Unknown:

almost stamp bubble thing. And then once you have done that,

Unknown:

that season, I done that, and I can shift into my licensing and

Unknown:

fine art portrait seasons. And that's how I do my year, but I

Unknown:

do break it down. Each one has a system. It's very, very clear.

Unknown:

Each system is different because the products are different. But

Unknown:

each one has a very clear system from art to sale.

Nicole York:

Oh yeah, it does a lot, Larry, that's outstanding.

Nicole York:

And so what I would want to ask you about that process is if you

Nicole York:

do need to change your pricing, let's say you know there's a big

Nicole York:

bump or you have a lot of interested folks and so you need

Nicole York:

to start weeding people out by adjusting pricing or whatever

Nicole York:

for whatever reason you need to adjust your pricing. Is that

Nicole York:

something you would only do them season by season once everything

Nicole York:

has gone and you recognize Okay, next season we probably need to

Nicole York:

charge more or how do you

Unknown:

Yeah, that's exactly right. I never change never

Unknown:

never changed workforces in the middle of the stream. So I do

Unknown:

wait for the end of the season. And once that season is wrapped

Unknown:

up, then I take a look back at everything. Usually pricing for

Unknown:

me goes by you know how much it's two things, really two

Unknown:

things. Sometimes you have a product that is incredible

Unknown:

product that a high end market Please want, put your price too

Unknown:

low for them to recognize it. And so you know, the general

Unknown:

mistake is that, well, I'll lower my prices further. And

Unknown:

that just takes you further away from the market that you want to

Unknown:

have as your client. So you've got to really establish what's

Unknown:

the target audience? And what will they spend, and then price

Unknown:

your product accordingly. And the reason I why that's

Unknown:

important is you need to have no weak links in your system. You

Unknown:

don't want to leave a confused client going, Wait a minute,

Unknown:

that wonderful, high end artwork, beautiful system,

Unknown:

they're so well spoken. And then all of a sudden, you get to the

Unknown:

price. And it's really cheap. The client says, Wait a minute,

Unknown:

am I missing something here? Are they for real, right? And so

Unknown:

sometimes too cheap can hurt you, you got to price that early

Unknown:

on, and make sure that's right. Now, once you get into it, and

Unknown:

you get to establish, and then you need to increase your price,

Unknown:

it's usually because there's too many people falling for the

Unknown:

amount of sessions that you want to do. I don't like to say,

Unknown:

well, I'll just take more business and drive myself into

Unknown:

the grave that doesn't do anybody any good. So at that

Unknown:

point, you have to increase your prices, and let some of the

Unknown:

people graciously not book you. If they really like your work,

Unknown:

they're gonna come back, and they're gonna, they're still

Unknown:

gonna book you for another time. But yeah, at the end of the

Unknown:

season is when I look back, and I say, Okay, let's take a look

Unknown:

at our year. And then let's make our new prices going forward.

Nicole York:

Beautiful. That was exactly what I was thinking that

Nicole York:

you were gonna say. And I would agree. And we've talked a lot

Nicole York:

about systematization in the past. And that's definitely

Nicole York:

something that we'll we'll talk about again in the future,

Nicole York:

because I think it's so important, but but specifically

Nicole York:

looking at this conversation. I'm really glad that you brought

Nicole York:

it up and I hope folks latch on to that. Jean, we're going to

Nicole York:

get to you and then Carol and then sissala So what are your

Nicole York:

thoughts?

Gene Sizemore:

Good morning, since I'm a travel snob first, I

Gene Sizemore:

just want to say greetings from warm and tropical Cali,

Gene Sizemore:

Colombia, and then shorts, and it's going to be a great

Gene Sizemore:

Christmas, I wanted to just share two quick things. I

Gene Sizemore:

started out as a fine art photographer, I was working full

Gene Sizemore:

time in the government. So Fine Art was something that I was

Gene Sizemore:

able to do as I traveled. And I got out of fine art because I

Gene Sizemore:

realized once I needed to start making my living with

Gene Sizemore:

photography was extremely difficult unless you're famous

Gene Sizemore:

or much better at photography than I was to make a living with

Gene Sizemore:

fine art photography. So I I then got into portraits. Now I

Gene Sizemore:

may be going back to fine art photography for a variety of

Gene Sizemore:

reasons that I'm keeping close to the chest. But what I wanted

Gene Sizemore:

to share was some of the experience that I had with the

Gene Sizemore:

print side of fine art. I initially went to, and I this

Gene Sizemore:

isn't I hope this is still a no judgment zone. But I initially

Gene Sizemore:

went to probably one of the highest costing and not the best

Gene Sizemore:

platforms to sell my stuff called Fine Art America. And I

Gene Sizemore:

very quickly got turned off because they took such a large

Gene Sizemore:

portion of the profit. And it didn't seem worth it to me. So

Gene Sizemore:

then I went out and I bought the big, you know, wide format 17

Gene Sizemore:

inch Epson printer, which I absolutely love. But it unless

Gene Sizemore:

you're printing enough volume, I found myself you know, there's

Gene Sizemore:

12 ink cartridges for that thing, and it's a it's $100 for

Gene Sizemore:

each ink cartridge. So it's you know, you find yourself spending

Gene Sizemore:

more money in ink, trying to keep your ink jets wet, then

Gene Sizemore:

then printing. So, you know, eventually what I what I

Gene Sizemore:

realized with fine art America is that it is a tobaccos point,

Gene Sizemore:

it is extremely valuable to be able to have a print on demand

Gene Sizemore:

type experience where you can focus on the art focus on

Gene Sizemore:

creating what you want to create, and then put it out

Gene Sizemore:

there for the world to look at and decide whether they want to

Gene Sizemore:

buy it or not. Now I could probably do a better job

Gene Sizemore:

marketing my gallery on fine art America, I think I maybe say one

Gene Sizemore:

or two things a year about it. Otherwise, people just kind of

Gene Sizemore:

find it. I do make sales on there. I always have I have some

Gene Sizemore:

images that have made, you know, four or $5,000 Just on that one

Gene Sizemore:

image over the time that I've been on that platform. I also

Gene Sizemore:

sell my stuff on Shutterstock. And that gets a bad rap because

Gene Sizemore:

you don't make any money quickly. I've made some decent

Gene Sizemore:

sales on Shutterstock. But of course, most of what I sell on

Gene Sizemore:

Shutterstock is you know 25 cents here and there. It's

Gene Sizemore:

they're not like fine art pieces. They're not to

Gene Sizemore:

photograph so I spend a lot of time on and it's usually just

Gene Sizemore:

something that I have there that I have other places but I just

Gene Sizemore:

put it there because you know why not? And But what I like

Gene Sizemore:

about Shutterstock is I get a lot of feedback and analytics

Gene Sizemore:

from Shutterstock that show me what people are interested in

Gene Sizemore:

what people click on what people like. And I've tried to always

Gene Sizemore:

make a habit of shooting more of that. And so it's a way for me

Gene Sizemore:

to, it's a cost free, I don't have to pay for the analytics,

Gene Sizemore:

I'm actually getting paid. It's not that much. But I get paid to

Gene Sizemore:

see what people are buying what they what people are liking. So

Gene Sizemore:

that's why I like the Shutterstock platform. So what I

Gene Sizemore:

wanted to just I just wanted to offer those two experiences, I'm

Gene Sizemore:

still on fight on America, I still have my printer, I don't

Gene Sizemore:

use my printer, I I'm waiting to figure out whether I'm going to

Gene Sizemore:

be whatever I have to go back to find out or not, because I may

Gene Sizemore:

still keep it. But I at one point recently wanted to get rid

Gene Sizemore:

of it and focus solely on fine art and in the emails are simply

Gene Sizemore:

just I just I got a call on and I ignored it. I just you know, I

Gene Sizemore:

like the idea of getting emails, you know, every couple of weeks,

Gene Sizemore:

hey, you just sold a print, here's your profit, you know,

Gene Sizemore:

blah, blah, blah. So what I wanted to ask if maybe in the

Gene Sizemore:

Facebook group, later on, if anybody had any ideas of better

Gene Sizemore:

platforms than fine art America, where you can sell your stuff

Gene Sizemore:

print on demand? I think you would, I would really love to

Gene Sizemore:

know what other people recommend. And I think it would

Gene Sizemore:

also help Becca because Becca wants to said she wanted to

Gene Sizemore:

explore that a little bit, too. It's been a it was always a game

Gene Sizemore:

changer. For me. I love just the print on demand aspect. So

Gene Sizemore:

that's, that's what I have.

Unknown:

I don't know if I want to but I should. But yeah, I

Bekka Bjorke:

can I can go drop some links to I would recommend

Bekka Bjorke:

just offhand if people are interested in that society, sex,

Bekka Bjorke:

and Threadless are really, really easy to set up.

Bekka Bjorke:

Particularly society six is more art based. But toss into those

Bekka Bjorke:

other Yeah, if anyone else has any ideas, let's definitely swap

Bekka Bjorke:

a reason.

Nicole York:

Yep, awesome. Let's grab a link to the Facebook

Nicole York:

group for that. So folks can be able to do that there because

Nicole York:

we're already pushing our hours. So I want to make sure Carolyn

Nicole York:

says levels have a chance to share their thoughts. We'd love

Nicole York:

to hear from you both.

Carol Gonzales:

Quick question, is there an art equivalent to

Carol Gonzales:

sue Brice for fine art as far as a model to follow?

Nicole York:

Not that I know of. And the reason for that is most

Nicole York:

artists are doing really individual things. There isn't

Nicole York:

necessarily a standard, a standardized approach to selling

Nicole York:

art. There are several different I would say categories of

Nicole York:

models. And I'll definitely talk about that in the Facebook group

Nicole York:

as well. But I mentioned a couple of them myself, I

Nicole York:

mentioned the retail sector. And that is where you are taking

Nicole York:

your work and you are selling it in bulk to folks who want it. So

Nicole York:

maybe you have a print store where people can buy, you know,

Nicole York:

prints of different sizes of certain types of your work,

Nicole York:

maybe you have very specific products that you sell, like

Nicole York:

bathing suits, or handbags or whatever it is, and folks can

Nicole York:

get your work that way. You have the opportunity to do

Nicole York:

commissions and one of a kind things for specific people who

Nicole York:

reach out to you for those things, you have the ability to

Nicole York:

create for other companies. So you can become an artist who's

Nicole York:

licensed to create for other companies, and then they pay you

Nicole York:

for your work. And that often becomes something like work for

Nicole York:

hire. You have the opportunity to do multiple things within

Nicole York:

your own business. So you can have some work that is fine art

Nicole York:

and some work that is retail. But you really do you have to

Nicole York:

begin by asking yourself what do I want my life to look like? How

Nicole York:

involved in the process do I want to be? You can be the crazy

Nicole York:

hermit artist in the woods. I have one of these in my family,

Nicole York:

who people will just come from everywhere to show up on your

Nicole York:

door and buy the paintings that you have. But of course that

Nicole York:

requires an entire marketing strategy to reach out to folks

Nicole York:

to let them know that you exist so they can find you and come

Nicole York:

and buy your work. And then or you could be there are several

Nicole York:

artists that I follow online that I I've mentioned Chris Ryan

Nicole York:

heck before he draws and sculpts monsters and they're so flippin

Nicole York:

cute, and they just touched my soul. So every time I see one, I

Nicole York:

want to get it and he will basically release in seasons. So

Nicole York:

he will he will create a few things and he will keep an email

Nicole York:

list and let everybody know. So he posts the work on his

Nicole York:

Instagram page and all of us are crazy fans follow it. And then

Nicole York:

he will let everybody know okay, we're about to release these

Nicole York:

resin figures on this date. Everybody gets ready, and then

Nicole York:

we go absolutely crazy. And those sell out within seconds.

Nicole York:

And when I say seconds, I mean seconds. I still have not been

Nicole York:

able to get my hands on a piece because by the time I'm hitting

Nicole York:

the buy button, they're gone already. So you have several

Nicole York:

different options that you can use to run these things. You

Nicole York:

just have to decide what you want that process to look like

Nicole York:

for you. And we can talk about that more in the Facebook group.

Bekka Bjorke:

I do, you know, you might know better, um, but

Bekka Bjorke:

our mutual friend Jason Mathias runs a class called The Art of

Bekka Bjorke:

selling art. I haven't really done his courses, but I know

Bekka Bjorke:

him. And he's rad. And he makes a great living as a fine artist.

Bekka Bjorke:

So that might be something.

Nicole York:

Yeah, and I can absolutely link that in our

Nicole York:

Facebook group as well, the art of selling art or tassa. On

Nicole York:

Facebook, it is a private group. So you do have to get accepted

Nicole York:

in order to join. But he's a fantastic person to learn from

Nicole York:

if fine art is particularly where you want to go, being able

Nicole York:

to find creators understand how to work art shows, all that kind

Nicole York:

of stuff. So we will link that in the Facebook group as well,

Nicole York:

since

Sissela:

I there, and I will keep this as human short, short

Sissela:

as possible, because I know we're running out of time. So as

Sissela:

a portrait photographer, one of the biggest things I asked

Sissela:

myself was, What do I like to sell? I don't particularly like

Sissela:

to sell wall art. So I don't sell work. I sell mainly albums

Sissela:

and boxes with matted prints, as well as Digital's and the

Sissela:

digital part is a fairly new thing. Because just like Matt, I

Sissela:

had to ask myself, what is it that my clients are actually

Sissela:

asking of me, I don't like pushing people in a way in a

Sissela:

direction they don't necessarily need. And I found that I've had

Sissela:

clients that just left their prints behind. So now I also

Sissela:

offer prints and I'm still working out the the nitty gritty

Sissela:

of that part. But I think the really important question you

Sissela:

have to ask yourself is what do you like to sell? What do you

Sissela:

like? What do what are you passionate about? Because that

Sissela:

passion is going to show through? Initially, I sold a lot

Sissela:

of heirloom boxes, because I was very passionate about them. But

Sissela:

then I discovered albums, I love them to pieces. And now I can

Sissela:

speak incredibly passionate about my albums, and they're

Sissela:

absolutely freaking gorgeous. So for me, I sell more of that now,

Sissela:

simply due to the fact that I am more passionate about my albums.

Sissela:

So ask yourself, what do you want to sell? What do you like

Sissela:

to sell? And what does your clients ask of you? What do they

Sissela:

actually want? Listen to them. And try to let go of your ego a

Sissela:

little bit. Because that's really important. It's

Sissela:

ultimately in portrait photography about your clients.

Sissela:

And make it being passionate about is what's going to help

Sissela:

you sell it.

Nicole York:

Brilliant. That is a fantastic way to end this

Nicole York:

conversation and bring everything together. So as we

Nicole York:

talk about mastering the business of art and building

Nicole York:

these businesses, beginning with our philosophy of business,

Nicole York:

asking ourselves what type of business we want to run, what

Nicole York:

kind of legal entity is it going to be? How is the business going

Nicole York:

to run? Who are our clients? Where do we find them. And then

Nicole York:

right now talking about what are we going to sell. So to tie

Nicole York:

everything in a neat little bow first, remember that what you're

Nicole York:

selling is primarily emotional and psychological, you are

Nicole York:

meeting a need for somebody when they see that work, it is going

Nicole York:

to strike feelings in them. And that is either going to be

Nicole York:

things like nostalgia or, or joy or connection or whatever it is

Nicole York:

when they see that work a sense of peace. So a memory of a place

Nicole York:

that they loved all of those things, they're going to see

Nicole York:

that piece and it's going to connect with them that way

Nicole York:

remember that first you are meeting that need and then the

Nicole York:

physical product, or the digital product or the service becomes a

Nicole York:

representation of meeting that need. And then you need to ask

Nicole York:

yourself what you want your day to day life to look like and

Nicole York:

assess Listen, what are you passionate about. If you are

Nicole York:

getting into business if your philosophy of business is in

Nicole York:

order to preserve and create memories for people, then the

Nicole York:

products that you choose should hold that up it should put that

Nicole York:

on a pedestal it should be the support for that idea. So

Nicole York:

looking at products ask yourself what you love what you're

Nicole York:

passionate about how you want to serve people, and then start

Nicole York:

looking at what types of things exist in that space whether that

Nicole York:

is stock or fine art one of those commercial or retail

Nicole York:

photography or art whether that is portraits or commissioned

Nicole York:

work or design work. You have a lot of different things that you

Nicole York:

can provide folks in order to fill that need. What do you want

Nicole York:

your day to day life to look like? And then in the long term,

Nicole York:

is this the kind of mom and pop type it's all about you thing

Nicole York:

fine artists are in this boat whether they want to be or not

Nicole York:

because the creation of the work is completely upon them. They

Nicole York:

may have kind of satellite people who who facilitate that

Nicole York:

for them agents and galleries and things like that. Printers

Nicole York:

folks who help them be in business, but once that artists

Nicole York:

stops working. The business no longer exists unless you have

Nicole York:

built it into the kind of thing that is licensable in the long

Nicole York:

term. But so fine artists are in this category because they are

Nicole York:

the heart and soul of the business. And without them the

Nicole York:

business no longer exists. Is that the kind of thing that you

Nicole York:

want to run? Or do you want this to become something that is

Nicole York:

scalable in the long term, something that somebody can run

Nicole York:

and you can step away from, maybe all you do is provide

Nicole York:

ideas and provide pieces and general oversight, but somebody

Nicole York:

else handles the day to day, and you just earn income off of

Nicole York:

that. Knowing those things is going to help you figure out

Nicole York:

where your profit margins need to be and what you need to sell

Nicole York:

in order to facilitate that in the long term. So there's a lot

Nicole York:

to think about with this, it is a big conversation. But

Nicole York:

hopefully what we talked about today will help kind of set

Nicole York:

people on that path. Let's continue this conversation in

Nicole York:

the Facebook group, because I know everybody has a lot of

Nicole York:

questions still, particularly those of us who do not run

Nicole York:

traditional portrait photography businesses, which is the kind of

Nicole York:

majority of us here, do that type of work. So for those of us

Nicole York:

who don't, let's make sure that we share those resources. And

Nicole York:

then for everybody else in the audience, if you have ideas, if

Nicole York:

you have, you know, specific things that you do to sell your

Nicole York:

products to get to the place where you understand what kind

Nicole York:

of products you want to sell, and why. Let's continue that

Nicole York:

conversation there and share resources so we can continue to

Nicole York:

grow. Thank you so much to everybody who was here today who

Nicole York:

shared their thoughts and questions and insights.

Nicole York:

Hopefully this was really helpful, particularly if you're

Nicole York:

first getting off the ground with your business. But even if

Nicole York:

you're already up and running, we're about to end the year. So

Nicole York:

this is the perfect time to make those adjustments, so that

Nicole York:

you'll be ready for the year ahead. Alright, everyone, have a

Nicole York:

fantastic day. Hopefully we will see you bright and early

Nicole York:

tomorrow morning at 7am Mountain Standard Time. That's exam for

Nicole York:

the west coast at 9am for the East Coast. In the meantime, go

Nicole York:

make something amazing. And we'll see you tomorrow morning.

Matt Stagliano:

Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse

Matt Stagliano:

discussion moderated by all of us at the artist Forge. We hope

Matt Stagliano:

you found the information useful and that it helps you gain a

Matt Stagliano:

little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft. For more

Matt Stagliano:

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About the Podcast

Morning Walk with The Artist's Forge
How to Critique Art
Learn how mindset, creativity, and visual literacy will help you think like an artist so you can create work you love and build a career that matters; bridging the gap between technique and art.

About your host

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Nicole York